North Dakota Preps

I wish they would go back to old rules and start calling the charges. This has first come from NBA and then the college ranks this rule and its all for the big players in the game. My opinion it just makes for rougher game inside the paint if your bigger than defending player you can just shoulder block him out the way and score and if that doesn't happen you have the foul. The inside defender has no rights to stop a player once you get to the circle and hence offensive player is protected and there is no penalty for aggressive play. I would prefer that officials called the game close where contact was reduced which most fans today would hate but if it was called long enough and consistently enough would get back to game where quickness and speed would be more of asset versus size and strength. I believe if fans could see this style of basketball they would eventually see what I am meaning it would be more fast pace up and down the court game with lots of shooting and driving to the basket. I just think with the circle rule your getting more rougher game coming for high school basketball.

The Schwab wrote:

Run4Fun2009 wrote:btw MN added the arc as well this year...

Do you happen to know the measurements? Is it' 3' or 4'?

I’d have to check tonight

I think the circle is great but the refs need to enforce it more. They call charges and they should be and 1 way more often. The paint is for the Big Man and it should be that way. Height has the advantage around the rim and thats only right.

It would be nice if this rule could be explained in plain English for the fans. Sometimes I wonder that between the 3 referees that each one would make the call differently and that neither could give the same explanation. It really takes away from the fun of the game when people have no understanding on why a call was made. I would like to see some video clips that explain why a call was or was not made. Seriously, nobody can really explain this rule.

Primary defenders can still take a charge inside/on the arc; secondary defenders cannot and therefore the call would be a blocking foul.

I do not mind the circle and the rule itself. My problem with it is many of our officials guess if they do not see the placement of the secondary defender. I have had many officials come together discuss the call, and get it right. That is good officiating. In other instances, the officials do not communicate and the block/charge call becomes a guessing game. This is when coaches and fans go berserk. The wider angle view allows for the view of the contact and the placement of the defender. The official on the baseline does not have the luxury of that view, so having officials willing to communicate can alleviate many of the concerns I have with the rule.

Kids running up by opposing players and just flopping needs to be stopped also, they should get a technical for those actions. Play the game right or get off the court I'd say!! I mean there all strong teenagers playing hard and having fun!

B-oldtimer wrote:I wish they would go back to old rules and start calling the charges. This has first come from NBA and then the college ranks this rule and its all for the big players in the game. My opinion it just makes for rougher game inside the paint if your bigger than defending player you can just shoulder block him out the way and score and if that doesn't happen you have the foul. The inside defender has no rights to stop a player once you get to the circle and hence offensive player is protected and there is no penalty for aggressive play. I would prefer that officials called the game close where contact was reduced which most fans today would hate but if it was called long enough and consistently enough would get back to game where quickness and speed would be more of asset versus size and strength. I believe if fans could see this style of basketball they would eventually see what I am meaning it would be more fast pace up and down the court game with lots of shooting and driving to the basket. I just think with the circle rule your getting more rougher game coming for high school basketball.

You don't understand the rule.

sportsnut5 wrote:I do not mind the circle and the rule itself. My problem with it is many of our officials guess if they do not see the placement of the secondary defender. I have had many officials come together discuss the call, and get it right. That is good officiating. In other instances, the officials do not communicate and the block/charge call becomes a guessing game. This is when coaches and fans go berserk. The wider angle view allows for the view of the contact and the placement of the defender. The official on the baseline does not have the luxury of that view, so having officials willing to communicate can alleviate many of the concerns I have with the rule.

Fans don't have a clue what a block or a charge is. They think anytime the defender falls down it should be a charge. Way too many charges called IMO. When in doubt call a block.

Run4Fun2009 wrote:Primary defenders can still take a charge inside/on the arc; secondary defenders cannot and therefore the call would be a blocking foul.

How do you determine a primary and secondary defender in a zone defense?

Rivershark wrote:
How do you determine a primary and secondary defender in a zone offense?

First defender, primary defender, closest defender. All the same. Help defense, once offensive player gets by first or closest defender then is secondary defender. For instance in a 2 - 3 zone, if a baseline offensive player gets by low wing on baseline, the middle defender becomes secondary defender or help defense. That help defender must be outside arc to take a charge. Hope that makes sense.

Flip wrote:

B-oldtimer wrote:I wish they would go back to old rules and start calling the charges. This has first come from NBA and then the college ranks this rule and its all for the big players in the game. My opinion it just makes for rougher game inside the paint if your bigger than defending player you can just shoulder block him out the way and score and if that doesn't happen you have the foul. The inside defender has no rights to stop a player once you get to the circle and hence offensive player is protected and there is no penalty for aggressive play. I would prefer that officials called the game close where contact was reduced which most fans today would hate but if it was called long enough and consistently enough would get back to game where quickness and speed would be more of asset versus size and strength. I believe if fans could see this style of basketball they would eventually see what I am meaning it would be more fast pace up and down the court game with lots of shooting and driving to the basket. I just think with the circle rule your getting more rougher game coming for high school basketball.

You don't understand the rule.

I was going to reply to this but you beat me to it Flip.

Rivershark wrote:It would be nice if this rule could be explained in plain English for the fans. Sometimes I wonder that between the 3 referees that each one would make the call differently and that neither could give the same explanation. It really takes away from the fun of the game when people have no understanding on why a call was made. I would like to see some video clips that explain why a call was or was not made. Seriously, nobody can really explain this rule.

The restricted area is irrelevant when it involves the primary defender.
There is no primary defender in transition.
Secondary defenders can not take a charge in the restricted area.

I love the rule. It prevents players from standing under the airborne offensive player. Prevents injuries and makes the game a lot easier to officiate.

A secondary defender can take a charge in the restricted area if they gain initial legal guarding position outside of the circle.

I think we will see a rise in player-control-fouls in general. A NFHS point of emphasis this year is to remind players, coaches and officials what legal guarding position is, block/charge, verticality, and screening.

Flip wrote:

sportsnut5 wrote:I do not mind the circle and the rule itself. My problem with it is many of our officials guess if they do not see the placement of the secondary defender. I have had many officials come together discuss the call, and get it right. That is good officiating. In other instances, the officials do not communicate and the block/charge call becomes a guessing game. This is when coaches and fans go berserk. The wider angle view allows for the view of the contact and the placement of the defender. The official on the baseline does not have the luxury of that view, so having officials willing to communicate can alleviate many of the concerns I have with the rule.

Fans don't have a clue what a block or a charge is. They think anytime the defender falls down it should be a charge. Way too many charges called IMO. When in doubt call a block.

I agree, people don't have a clue which is why the NFHS made it a point of emphasis to educate. There are not enough player control fouls called. Players playing great defense are unfairly penalized way too often.

Thoughts so far this year:

1. Circle is way too wide, you can take a good charge being 4 feet from the basket and not sliding under an airborne shooter (this should be called a block anyway, don't matter if there's a circle or not).

2. I don't know how to make it easier to call correctly, this year I have seen 5 times this rule was used, it was called correctly on 2 of the 5 times (After watching it on film).

3. I don't like the wording of "In an outnumbering fast-break situation, any defensive player(s) initially
shall be a secondary defender". IMO it adds confusion, does outnumbering mean players across half-court? Inside of 25 feet? In the arc?

4. A player far more often than not establishes initial guarding position outside of the circle, through the process of defending, ends up in the circle and the block is automatically called.

5. This rule makes sense for Class A boys basketball, you can argue either way for class B boys basketball (there are some kids that play above the rim) and IMO doesn't make sense for hs girls basketball.

6. I feel a lot of my issues would be resolved by making the arc 3' in radius instead of 4'.

Just my two cents.

I like the rule and I would really like it quite a bit more if they actually would not call a foul on a defender that jumps straight up and down with his arms straight up and the offensive player makes the contact. I have seen it about 5 times this year with one player that is really tall. The little guys come flying in and he jumps straight up and they run into him and he gets called for the foul. I hate that.

maddog1971 wrote:I like the rule and I would really like it quite a bit more if they actually would not call a foul on a defender that jumps straight up and down with his arms straight up and the offensive player makes the contact. I have seen it about 5 times this year with one player that is really tall. The little guys come flying in and he jumps straight up and they run into him and he gets called for the foul. I hate that.

Verticality...shouldn’t be a foul if the arms don’t come down to attempt a block. Actually saw an offensive foul called on this type of play last night...thought it was 100% the correct call; fans never see it that way though (including the one yelling obscenities after the call)

maddog1971 wrote:I like the rule and I would really like it quite a bit more if they actually would not call a foul on a defender that jumps straight up and down with his arms straight up and the offensive player makes the contact. I have seen it about 5 times this year with one player that is really tall. The little guys come flying in and he jumps straight up and they run into him and he gets called for the foul. I hate that.

I agree, I also wish they would call an offensive foul when the offensive player creates the contact. Have seen too many blocks called when an offensive puts his head down and drives his shoulder into the defender to create space to get their shot off.

Run4Fun2009 wrote:

maddog1971 wrote:I like the rule and I would really like it quite a bit more if they actually would not call a foul on a defender that jumps straight up and down with his arms straight up and the offensive player makes the contact. I have seen it about 5 times this year with one player that is really tall. The little guys come flying in and he jumps straight up and they run into him and he gets called for the foul. I hate that.

Verticality...shouldn’t be a foul if the arms don’t come down to attempt a block. Actually saw an offensive foul called on this type of play last night...thought it was 100% the correct call; fans never see it that way though (including the one yelling obscenities after the call)

So what if the contact of the player in the mid-section cause the kids arms to come forward? That is the call that was being called the other night. The kids where jumping into him and making him lean forward a little so his arms where coming down some.

maddog1971 wrote:

Run4Fun2009 wrote:

maddog1971 wrote:I like the rule and I would really like it quite a bit more if they actually would not call a foul on a defender that jumps straight up and down with his arms straight up and the offensive player makes the contact. I have seen it about 5 times this year with one player that is really tall. The little guys come flying in and he jumps straight up and they run into him and he gets called for the foul. I hate that.

Verticality...shouldn’t be a foul if the arms don’t come down to attempt a block. Actually saw an offensive foul called on this type of play last night...thought it was 100% the correct call; fans never see it that way though (including the one yelling obscenities after the call)

So what if the contact of the player in the mid-section cause the kids arms to come forward? That is the call that was being called the other night. The kids where jumping into him and making him lean forward a little so his arms where coming down some.

I wasn't there so I couldn't tell you what I would call from my vantage point. Depends on how the contact is from the vantage point of that official. If a offensive player puts their head down and drives their shoulder towards a defender...I am usually inclined to call the offensive foul (even if the defender is moving but still defending legally); so in the end, I can't comment on a play that I didn't see first-hand (message me on which game this was in...I might be able to find vid and then comment).