Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

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Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:18 pm

What are people's thoughts on having a semi-circle lane in high school to help with the charge/block calls inside.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Indy5 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:25 pm

I think it would be a positive change. Hate when you see a charge called with the defender underneath the hoop.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Hinsa » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:08 pm

I would guess this rule is comin' round the mountain real fast. Don't know if I like it or not. You still see tons of block/charge calls in the lane, you just see them farther out.

Here's a question as I don't know how the rule reads exactly: What if a guy gets an offensive rebound and then plows over a defender who is inside the semi-circle to score the putback? Does the semi-circle only apply to a player driving to the basket? I could see that this rule could be taken advantage of by a strong rebounder around the basket if there is really no such thing as a charge inside the semi-circle.

Here's another scenario: guy drives baseline, stops under the basket, jumps up into a defender who is inside the semi-circle to get to the front of the backboard to score the layup. Charge? Block?

Just curious as to how these would be interpreted.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Flip » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:17 pm

I believe if you catch the ball inside the restricted area you can't drop your shoulder and plow a guy over.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:58 pm

I've been talking to quite a few people about this a lot lately. This rule needs to be put in YESTERDAY!! I see kids driving the lane going up for a lay-up and kids fall underneath them and its called a charge. It would be a very postive change kids would actually have to beat a player to the correct spot on the floor not to just under the rim. Charges are called wrong all the time in HS.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby bequickdonthurry » Tue Jan 17, 2012 11:41 pm

So, when refs are too chicken to make calls within the current rules, make more rules? Is this a rule to clean up the game, or a rule to get more offense in the game? Need a lot more explaining before I'm convinced we need another rule.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 12:31 am

bequickdonthurry wrote:So, when refs are too chicken to make calls within the current rules, make more rules? Is this a rule to clean up the game, or a rule to get more offense in the game? Need a lot more explaining before I'm convinced we need another rule.


In my opinion, its to clean up the game. TOO many charges called in an area where you should not be able to take a charge. The semi-circle would help that and it could also be to prevent potential injuries. Players that take charges under the hoop (especially in a small gym where the wall is close to the floor) are risking a major head/neck injury in those situations. If a player knows that you can't take one within that semi-circle then I don't think they'll try to do so. (JMHO)
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:48 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
bequickdonthurry wrote:So, when refs are too chicken to make calls within the current rules, make more rules? Is this a rule to clean up the game, or a rule to get more offense in the game? Need a lot more explaining before I'm convinced we need another rule.


In my opinion, its to clean up the game. TOO many charges called in an area where you should not be able to take a charge. The semi-circle would help that and it could also be to prevent potential injuries. Players that take charges under the hoop (especially in a small gym where the wall is close to the floor) are risking a major head/neck injury in those situations. If a player knows that you can't take one within that semi-circle then I don't think they'll try to do so. (JMHO)



I agree 100% run, hopefully this CHANGE gets approved!
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby bequickdonthurry » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:26 pm

I'll disagree and attempt to show how the rule change will fail to clean up the game. Up front, in no way do I ever think or believe that poor defense should ever be rewarded be either rule or by referee.

First, the rule needs to be explained. Earlier posts do not provide the rule. I'll make that attempt but will admit to less than 100% certainty of my accuracy of the rule. Here goes: When an offensive player passes (beats) a primary defender on a path to the basket, ANY contact with a secondary (help) defender who is inside the arc MUST be called a block. (This is how the rule was explained to me by an official with college experience.)

If this is indeed a accurate description of the rule, then these plays and whether its result will 'clean up the game'.

Without the rule:
Play 1: Offensive player gets the edge beating his defender to the basket, and the resulting contact is called a block. The offensive player has been rewarded and will attempt same in future possession.

Play 2: Offensive player thinks they can get to the basket. Defensive player having established a legal guarding position, maintains that position beats offensive player to the spot and resulting contact is called a charge. Rewarding the defense and penalizing the offense causes offense to rethink drive next time, result-cleaner game.

Play 3: Offensive player beats primary defender, help defender fails to get legal guarding position, contact results in block call. Offensive player will repeat.

Play 4: Offensive player beats primary defender,the help defender gets a legal guarding position and contact results in a charge call, the offensive player will slow down next time, cleaner game.

Now insert the new rule. Plays 1 and 2 don't change since contact is only/by primary defender. The outcome of plays 3 and 4 will now both depend on where the help defender is. If inside the arc, both plays will become a block, both of which will encourage the offensive player to go at it again.

How does that result in a cleaner game?

Given the size and athletic ability of the NBA player, they can get to or reach the rim from quite a bit farther out than all but the elite high school players. This rule fits the NBA player, and many male college players. Does that really fit the average high school game, or even the women's college game? I don't think so and don't believe it will do anything to clean up the game.

Also, zone defense is not allowed in the NBA. It is still allowed in high school. So the center of a 2-3 zone, having done everything legal, is placed in a no-win situation by playing his/her normal position with feet inside the arc. How is that better for the game?

When refs have the courage to officiate the defense and reward defense for good defense, then the offensive players will clean up the game.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby ND_beast » Fri Jan 20, 2012 9:35 am

bequickdonthurry wrote: Also, zone defense is not allowed in the NBA.

This is incorrect. Zone is allowed in the NBA. Defensive players just can't camp in the lane without defending someone. The Timberwolves ran a zone the other night against the Pistons. I know other NBA teams run zones during games.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby bequickdonthurry » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:57 pm

Don't think we need the NBAs illegal defense rules at lower levels of ball either.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 12:00 am

bequickdonthurry wrote:Don't think we need the NBAs illegal defense rules at lower levels of ball either.


The question is strictly on the semi circle...nothing about zones or illegal defenses.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Indy5 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:51 am

bequickdonthurry wrote:Don't think we need the NBAs illegal defense rules at lower levels of ball either.

College has the semi circle too.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:51 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:The semi-circle would help that and it could also be to prevent potential injuries. Players that take charges under the hoop (especially in a small gym where the wall is close to the floor) are risking a major head/neck injury in those situations.


This is a good point Run, but I do believe that there will be less small gyms with this problem as time goes on.

bequickdonthurry wrote:Given the size and athletic ability of the NBA player, they can get to or reach the rim from quite a bit farther out than all but the elite high school players. This rule fits the NBA player, and many male college players. Does that really fit the average high school game, or even the women's college game? I don't think so and don't believe it will do anything to clean up the game.


You gave a very good explanation above and would have to agree with you.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Mon Jan 23, 2012 4:05 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:The semi-circle would help that and it could also be to prevent potential injuries. Players that take charges under the hoop (especially in a small gym where the wall is close to the floor) are risking a major head/neck injury in those situations.


This is a good point Run, but I do believe that there will be less small gyms with this problem as time goes on.

bequickdonthurry wrote:Given the size and athletic ability of the NBA player, they can get to or reach the rim from quite a bit farther out than all but the elite high school players. This rule fits the NBA player, and many male college players. Does that really fit the average high school game, or even the women's college game? I don't think so and don't believe it will do anything to clean up the game.


You gave a very good explanation above and would have to agree with you.


It would clean up the game bc the DEFENSE wouldnt be able to step under guys that are already in the air. You have the beat the offense to a spot on the floor not fall underneath them. Small gyms will be around in ND for many years to come still.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby bequickdonthurry » Mon Jan 23, 2012 7:32 pm

The defense is not allowed to do that now. If that happens, that is a block and should be called. That call can be made now without painting another line on the floor.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 9:22 am

bequickdonthurry wrote:The defense is not allowed to do that now. If that happens, that is a block and should be called. That call can be made now without painting another line on the floor.



Big difference between not allowed and not being called. In my opinon the charge is the most controversial call in HS basketball, and this would be a big help to coaches, players and officials.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:01 pm

packers21 wrote:
bequickdonthurry wrote:The defense is not allowed to do that now. If that happens, that is a block and should be called. That call can be made now without painting another line on the floor.



Big difference between not allowed and not being called. In my opinon the charge is the most controversial call in HS basketball, and this would be a big help to coaches, players and officials.


You are absolutely correct. Seems to me though, it doesn't have to be that controversial. A very good ref taught me to look for certain things when making a decision on this call: 1. Does the offensive player get his gut past the defensive player's gut (basic)? 2. If the defensive player falls down, is he going down in the line of the play or to the side? But the most important thing he taught me, don't be afraid to make a "no call". Sometimes good defenders stop the drive, may get dislodged a bit, but as long as the offensive player didn't gain an advantage, let it go. Just don't think we need to add another rule just because it has worked in the NBA or college level. Different level of athlete as stated earlier. 2 cents.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:10 pm

classB4ever wrote:
packers21 wrote:
bequickdonthurry wrote:The defense is not allowed to do that now. If that happens, that is a block and should be called. That call can be made now without painting another line on the floor.



Big difference between not allowed and not being called. In my opinon the charge is the most controversial call in HS basketball, and this would be a big help to coaches, players and officials.


You are absolutely correct. Seems to me though, it doesn't have to be that controversial. A very good ref taught me to look for certain things when making a decision on this call: 1. Does the offensive player get his gut past the defensive player's gut (basic)? 2. If the defensive player falls down, is he going down in the line of the play or to the side? But the most important thing he taught me, don't be afraid to make a "no call". Sometimes good defenders stop the drive, may get dislodged a bit, but as long as the offensive player didn't gain an advantage, let it go. Just don't think we need to add another rule just because it has worked in the NBA or college level. Different level of athlete as stated earlier. 2 cents.


Well I'm just getting sick and tired of officials calling charges when a player drives the lane, shoots the ball (floater, layup, etc.), and then makes contact with the player under the cylinder/backboard...and they wipe away the basket and call a charge. It has happened 6 times (off the top of my head) in games that I've watched this year.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:20 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
packers21 wrote:
bequickdonthurry wrote:The defense is not allowed to do that now. If that happens, that is a block and should be called. That call can be made now without painting another line on the floor.



Big difference between not allowed and not being called. In my opinon the charge is the most controversial call in HS basketball, and this would be a big help to coaches, players and officials.


You are absolutely correct. Seems to me though, it doesn't have to be that controversial. A very good ref taught me to look for certain things when making a decision on this call: 1. Does the offensive player get his gut past the defensive player's gut (basic)? 2. If the defensive player falls down, is he going down in the line of the play or to the side? But the most important thing he taught me, don't be afraid to make a "no call". Sometimes good defenders stop the drive, may get dislodged a bit, but as long as the offensive player didn't gain an advantage, let it go. Just don't think we need to add another rule just because it has worked in the NBA or college level. Different level of athlete as stated earlier. 2 cents.


Well I'm just getting sick and tired of officials calling charges when a player drives the lane, shoots the ball (floater, layup, etc.), and then makes contact with the player under the cylinder/backboard...and they wipe away the basket and call a charge. It has happened 6 times (off the top of my head) in games that I've watched this year.




ClassB i would agree with you, but I just have not seen that at the games I've been .

I agree 110% with run, I've seen that same call countless times and it drives me absolutley crazy. It rewards bad defense, makes players not wanna drive, and causes to many injuries.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby classB4ever » Tue Jan 24, 2012 3:19 pm

I can understand your point. My problem is offensive players coming in the lane, out of control and getting baled out by poor blocking calls. So it can go both ways. This one is decided by when the offensive player leaves the ground and when the defender gains legal defending position. If the offensive player is under control, they should be able to change their direction to avoid a legal defender. Just my opinion.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby hoopsdream » Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:18 am

I'm in favor of the semi circle, reffing aside. If, as a player, I know that you will not get a charge if I step in front of a driving player inside that circle, I'll be willing to admit I was out of position and give up the layup (or try to block it). Either way, the semi circle helps protect players by eliminating some dangerous collisions. The paint is where most injuries occur (speculation here, no concrete sources) so by limiting a few of those collisions under the basket where there is no advantage - the player is already at the basket - it should help limit injuries.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Thu Feb 23, 2012 2:54 pm

After watching the district and regional games it has become even more clear to me that officials more than anyone would benefit from the semi-circle lane. I have many many many highly questionably calls in games when a player flops under the basektbal and just because they fall under the offensive player it has been called a charge. I really hope this rule gets changed.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby toughD » Wed Mar 07, 2012 9:11 am

The thing about the semi-circle is that it's not that big. I coach 5th & 6th grade boys, and we practice at the local university where they have the circles on the floor. When these young boys are running layup drills, most often they take off from outside this circle when they go up for a layup. If you set up for a charge inside the circle, you are standing DIRECTLY under the hoop, and you've already given the offensive player a clear path to the basket. This is poor defense and you should not be rewarded for giving up an uncontested bucket then letting the offensive player run into you as they're coming down from the shot. I'm definitely infavor of implementing the semi-circles for HS ball.
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Re: Thoughts on Semi Circle in lane for HS?

Postby packers21 » Wed Mar 14, 2012 9:49 am

toughD wrote:The thing about the semi-circle is that it's not that big. I coach 5th & 6th grade boys, and we practice at the local university where they have the circles on the floor. When these young boys are running layup drills, most often they take off from outside this circle when they go up for a layup. If you set up for a charge inside the circle, you are standing DIRECTLY under the hoop, and you've already given the offensive player a clear path to the basket. This is poor defense and you should not be rewarded for giving up an uncontested bucket then letting the offensive player run into you as they're coming down from the shot. I'm definitely infavor of implementing the semi-circles for HS ball.


What you posted sounds more like a argument for the circle not against it. I dont really understand your argument. Plus it would never be used in the younger grades anyways.
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