All State

[balla45]

What are your opinions?

Mine.

1st Team

Joe Hanstad
Nik Savageau
Bryan Kielpinski
Luke Schreiner
Jalen Finley or Esley Thorton

2nd Team

Jalen Finley or Esley Thorton
Josh Rodenbiker
Tyler Eiken
Devin Coyle
Taylor Hoffart, CJ Vinger, or Ryan Huber

[12321]

CJ Vinger 16.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 49% shooting
Bruce Govig 12.7ppg, 7.1rpg, 3.3apg, 45% shooting
Tyler Eiken 18.3ppg, 6.1rpg, 2.7apg, 50% shooting
Ryan Huber 15.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 48% 3-pointers
Jalen Finley 15.6ppg, 5rpg, 59% shooting

Esley Thorton 9.9ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.6apg, 44% shooting

Nothing against esley but he WASN'T in the top 15 for points or the top 10 for rebounds in the west let alone the state. He WAS 8th in assists in the west. But he also WASN'T top ten for for shooting percentage, 3pointers, steals, or blocks in the west. Sure he had a good couple of tournaments at the end here but that shouldnt be criteria for all-state.

If anything Eiken should be first team easily. If Esley gets a first team nomination i think it would be a shame for the kids who out performed him for the whole season and not just the last week.

[Indy5]

CJ Vinger 16.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 49% shooting
Bruce Govig 12.7ppg, 7.1rpg, 3.3apg, 45% shooting
Tyler Eiken 18.3ppg, 6.1rpg, 2.7apg, 50% shooting
Ryan Huber 15.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 48% 3-pointers
Jalen Finley 15.6ppg, 5rpg, 59% shooting

Esley Thorton 9.9ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.6apg, 44% shooting

Nothing against esley but he WASN'T in the top 15 for points or the top 10 for rebounds in the west let alone the state. He WAS 8th in assists in the west. But he also WASN'T top ten for for shooting percentage, 3pointers, steals, or blocks in the west. Sure he had a good couple of tournaments at the end here but that shouldnt be criteria for all-state.

If anything Eiken should be first team easily. If Esley gets a first team nomination i think it would be a shame for the kids who out performed him for the whole season and not just the last week.

Are you saying Hanstad, Kielpinski, and Savageau all shouldn't be all-state?

[MARKWALD23]

Was there a tournament mvp?

[bballfan7]

CJ Vinger 16.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 49% shooting
Bruce Govig 12.7ppg, 7.1rpg, 3.3apg, 45% shooting
Tyler Eiken 18.3ppg, 6.1rpg, 2.7apg, 50% shooting
Ryan Huber 15.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 48% 3-pointers
Jalen Finley 15.6ppg, 5rpg, 59% shooting

Esley Thorton 9.9ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.6apg, 44% shooting

Nothing against esley but he WASN'T in the top 15 for points or the top 10 for rebounds in the west let alone the state. He WAS 8th in assists in the west. But he also WASN'T top ten for for shooting percentage, 3pointers, steals, or blocks in the west. Sure he had a good couple of tournaments at the end here but that shouldnt be criteria for all-state.

If anything Eiken should be first team easily. If Esley gets a first team nomination i think it would be a shame for the kids who out performed him for the whole season and not just the last week.

I think he was just making a case for players who should be above Thorton.
Are you saying Hanstad, Kielpinski, and Savageau all shouldn't be all-state?

[balla45]

CJ Vinger 16.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 49% shooting
Bruce Govig 12.7ppg, 7.1rpg, 3.3apg, 45% shooting
Tyler Eiken 18.3ppg, 6.1rpg, 2.7apg, 50% shooting
Ryan Huber 15.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 48% 3-pointers
Jalen Finley 15.6ppg, 5rpg, 59% shooting

Esley Thorton 9.9ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.6apg, 44% shooting

Nothing against esley but he WASN'T in the top 15 for points or the top 10 for rebounds in the west let alone the state. He WAS 8th in assists in the west. But he also WASN'T top ten for for shooting percentage, 3pointers, steals, or blocks in the west. Sure he had a good couple of tournaments at the end here but that shouldnt be criteria for all-state.

If anything Eiken should be first team easily. If Esley gets a first team nomination i think it would be a shame for the kids who out performed him for the whole season and not just the last week.

I understand that the stats don't point in Esley's favor, but, he also had Finley, Miller, and Finley all scoring, and he was on the team that only lost one game. I find it hard to not give him all state, because if he were on a team where he had to do more, he would. I think Eiken should be first team all state and a Mr. Basketball candidate, but I do not think the media will do that. If I were voting on who deserved all state, I would go in order:

Joe Hanstad---far and away the best player
Nik Savageau---Senior athlete of the year
Bryan Kielpinski---Runner up to Savageau
Tyler Eiken---Most impressive statistical season of remaining players
Luke Schreiner---Returning first teamer

Jalen Finley---Championship, 1 loss, led team in scoring
Josh Rodenbiker---Led team to state, very good scorer and rebounder
Devin Coyle---Helped lead team to state, Mandan's best player at state
Esley Thorton---Leader of state's best team, much like Marcus Fridley in 2006, where Finley would be Kick
CJ Vinger---Dominated games all year long, but did not make state, which hurts him

Bruce Govig---Best player and leader of a team ranked all season long
Dexter Werner---Averaged a double double on states best team
Nick Schultz---Averaged a double double
Taylor Hoffart---Very solid all year long, playing without Ben Wolf, who would have been all state
Ryan Huber---Best remaining player

Esley should definately be an all state player, he reminds me of myself from last year. His numbers were down because he played on a very good team. Finley and Werner took A LOT of points and rebounds away from him. If Dexter doesn't get 10 or 11 boards a game, Esley's probably go up by 5 rebounds per game. His stats are not better than Huber for example, but he was a better player the entire season, and I think the WDA coaches would agree with me.

[12321]

CJ Vinger 16.3ppg, 7.1rpg, 49% shooting
Bruce Govig 12.7ppg, 7.1rpg, 3.3apg, 45% shooting
Tyler Eiken 18.3ppg, 6.1rpg, 2.7apg, 50% shooting
Ryan Huber 15.6ppg, 6.6rpg, 48% 3-pointers
Jalen Finley 15.6ppg, 5rpg, 59% shooting

Esley Thorton 9.9ppg, 5.7rpg, 2.6apg, 44% shooting

Nothing against esley but he WASN'T in the top 15 for points or the top 10 for rebounds in the west let alone the state. He WAS 8th in assists in the west. But he also WASN'T top ten for for shooting percentage, 3pointers, steals, or blocks in the west. Sure he had a good couple of tournaments at the end here but that shouldnt be criteria for all-state.

If anything Eiken should be first team easily. If Esley gets a first team nomination i think it would be a shame for the kids who out performed him for the whole season and not just the last week.

Are you saying Hanstad, Kielpinski, and Savageau all shouldn't be all-state?

No. Hanstad, Kielpinski, Savageau, and Shriner are all locks for first team in my opinion. What i was trying to say is that Eiken, Coyle, Finley, Rodenbiker, Vinger, Govig, and Huber are all more deserving of an all-state spot than thorton if you look at the whole season and not just the tournaments. But what i was more trying to get across is that he definately shouldnt be looked at for 1st-team all state. His numbers werent even close to Savegeau, Shreiner, Kielpinski, and Hanstad.

But i will say this about thorton. He is a winner. There's no denying that.

[balla45]

I will admit I was caught up in last night's game when I made this topic, but there is no way BHS only gets 1 all state player with a team like that. I believe Thorton was the second best player on their team.

[12321]

i know the state championship will help him a lot. And the kid is one of the most athletic players we have seen in north dakota as of late. But i find it hard to believe that a kid averaging 9points a game throughout the season can make an all state team.

I mean when you made all-state last year your numbers were higher in both points and rebounds.

Correct?

[balla45]

I averaged 13 8 3, he averaged 10 5 and 3, probably up a little bit after the state tournament. The biggest difference is the type of teammates, I know Werner and Finley combined for about 16 boards a game, where I only had Bryan's 8 rebounds, so I had more chances. If Esley had only Jalen or Dexter, but not both, he would have had opportunities to get more rebounds and points off of put backs, which is how Jalen and Dexter scored more of their points, and he probably averages the same amount of points and rebounds as I did.

Pretty much, take Werner 10 points 11 boards off the team, and they become maybe 6 points and 5 boards for Esley. I don't think he should lose an all state award because he played with 2 great rebounders. I watched a lot of basketball, and in my opinion, Thorton was a bigger game changer than some players with better numbers.

[12321]

i dont believe he was that big of a factor. He scored under 10 points in 10 out of 16 conferance games. He didnt show any of his big play ability until the tournaments. Where he showed up HUGE.

But im not gonna argue about this anymore.
I've stated my opinions.
You've stated yours
Let's let the coaches decide for us.

[balla45]

I think the coaches would agree with me, but all state is a media award.

[squeak63]

here is the thing about esley thorton... if you take him off of bhs they don't win state... they don't even have a chance to win state, if you take dexter and jalen off of that team they wouldn't be nearly as dominent but would still be a contender for a title, esley does what it takes to win, do you think when jake miller went off for 200+ yards in a game in football and es only threw for 75 he really cared? no because everyone knew he was the leader of that team and his abilities (even though he may not have showed them) were a big reason that jake was able to get those yards. Another reason i think esley gets all-state... the media is obsessed with him, and rightfully so because he is a kind all around athlete ND wont see again in a while.

[InsideMan]

I think in this case for a kid to be all-state they have to have some good numbers. I don't think those numbers have to be eliete but they have to be better than what they currently are at because its hard to put a value on leadership. I do think that he is a great leader and the reason why they won on saturday but I would have to respectfully disagree with him as an all-stater especaially when you take a look at some of the other kids that he is in the running against. He has all my respect as a winner as a competitor but unfortunately the all-state team doesn't weigh that as much as the other categories.

My all state team
Savageau
Hanstad
Kielpinski
Then pick 2 from Schreiner, Vinger, Finley, Huber - Its basically a toss up for me. A strong case could be made for all of them.

[bcourtbraves]

If your going to put names like Vinger or Huber in the all state talk, why not Andrew Saari?? He had a good statistical year, just a bit better than both Vinger and Huber. He didn't lead his team to regionals, and I don't know how much that influences all state selections. However, Saari should get some thought.

[InsideMan]

You are right and he does. I just tried to make an actual "team" with Kielpinski being the post instead of Saari - he did have a good season though.

[balla45]

Andrew Saari's team won two games, that is why I am hesitant to throw him in the discussion. I don't like Huber in the discussion for the same reason. I like Vinger in there because his team was very close to getting to state, and he was solid all season long, with some very good games, and I feel that he is one of the 10 best players in the state.

[Indy5]

Like Balla45 said, if Saari was 1st team worthy, Belcourt would have won more than 2 games all year. Those 2 wins were both against the 8 seed from the WDA.

[roundem6]

Just my opinion, I dont think Thorton should be all-state for having "better teammates."
All-state is awarded for individual performances of your season.
Yes, he did come up absolutely monsterous in the Championship but no, I dont think he should make all-state based on his work all year.

[balla45]

All State is the top 10 players in the state. You will not convince me that any player at Century, Saint Mary's, or Turtle Mountain is better than Thorton.

I don't think Thorton should be all state for having better teammates, I think he should be all state because he is a top 10 player.

This is my best example, BHS wins state and loses 2 games in North Dakota, while Williston does not make state. It doesn't seem feasible that Williston has two all state players and Bismarck has one.

Esley's defensive contributions do not show up either, sure blocks and steals show up, but denying players like Hanstad doesn't. Credit needs to be given here as well.

[12321]

Like Balla45 said, if Saari was 1st team worthy, Belcourt would have won more than 2 games all year. Those 2 wins were both against the 8 seed from the WDA.

Well if we're going to base our criteria on wins then how do we explain Joe Hanstad's team taking 8th in their region? Yes, he's questionably the best player in the state (notice i said questionably for all of you who think Savvy is), he's is obviously a first team all-stater, but he was also on a bad team. Andrew Saari, a very talented player, should not be punished for being on a bad team just as Joe isn't punished or even questioned. There are very few kids who could be one man teams and make their team win, and thats joe included seeing that they took 8th. Since joe's stock hasnt dropped at all neither should anyone elses.

[balla45]

Joe's stock didn't drop and Saari's didn't drop, it was never very high.

[12321]

All State is the top 10 players in the state. You will not convince me that any player at Century, Saint Mary's, or Turtle Mountain is better than Thorton.

I don't think Thorton should be all state for having better teammates, I think he should be all state because he is a top 10 player.

This is my best example, BHS wins state and loses 2 games in North Dakota, while Williston does not make state. It doesn't seem feasible that Williston has two all state players and Bismarck has one.

Esley's defensive contributions do not show up either, sure blocks and steals show up, but denying players like Hanstad doesn't. Credit needs to be given here as well.

This is not just limited to esley. Many others up for all-state also guard the other teams best player.

[balla45]

Whom?

[12321]

Whom?

Eiken/Vinger, Huber, and Esley all held Joe to a low of 14