VC coming back to class A

[rebeler_53]

What is everyones thoughts on VC coming back to class A?

[balla45]

It is dumb. They can't compete and shouldn't have to play a Class A schedule. They are Class B in every essence. They aren't even the best Class B team now, so obviously they belong there.

[bruins44]

they may be able to compete some years in boys basketball but girls basketball -NO WAY, did they even think about all the other sports? volleyball, golf, track, wrestling... there is no way they have enough athletes to compete with Class A schools... so a couple of class b schools are mad that they are in B so they bring it back to the NDHSAA board and get it changed, what a bunch of crap!!

[ballernation]

as a class b guy, to me this is a load of crap... if anything if im a class b skool i wanna take on the challenge of having a bigger skooll.... and its not like they were dominating are anything... so many class b skools are ridikulous wen it comes to stuff like this. its not fair to valley city at all , i hope they win that region cause what a bunch of babies

[larrybird33]

You class A folks need to go over and look through the class B conversations about this topic. The enrollment cutoff has been at 325 for decades. It didn't move for Beulah or Grafton, but the NDHSAA pulled a fast one last year and moved the line for one school (VCHS), the school that happens to be located four blocks away from their offices.

Now that the NDHSAA member schools got a vote (the vote that was taken away from them last year), they voted in a landslide (70-34) to return the line to 325 where it belongs. That's right, 70 schools were upset about the move last year, not just a couple.

There's no question that the product they're putting on the court fits fine in 'B' and isn't competitive in A, but you can't blame that entirely on the numbers. The Beulah Miners were never sacrificial lambs in the WDA with fewer numbers. They competed. They didn't have winless seasons.

Valley City is THE misfit, no matter where they are put. Put them in A and they are several times smaller than their competition in enrollment. Put them in B and the opposite is true. The enrollment cutoff is at 325 where it belongs, where it was for Beulah and Grafton, via the democratic process. In a few years, Valley City is going to be very close to dipping under 325 naturally, and if/when that happens, I will welcome them in 'B' without hesitation.

[sportsguruguy]

as a class b guy, to me this is a load of crap... if anything if im a class b skool i wanna take on the challenge of having a bigger skooll.... and its not like they were dominating are anything... so many class b skools are ridikulous wen it comes to stuff like this. its not fair to valley city at all , i hope they win that region cause what a bunch of babies

I am confused , your post makes no sense, what are you trying to say?

[ballernation]

as a class b guy, to me this is a load of crap... if anything if im a class b skool i wanna take on the challenge of having a bigger skooll.... and its not like they were dominating are anything... so many class b skools are ridikulous wen it comes to stuff like this. its not fair to valley city at all , i hope they win that region cause what a bunch of babies

I am confused , your post makes no sense, what are you trying to say?

i am saying valley should stay B cause they are competing for once. and its not like there dominating

[NDSportsFan]

Where are they supposed to go? Can you name other schools who have almost the same enrollment? Is there enough for them to form a B+?

[Indy5]

Where are they supposed to go? Can you name other schools who have almost the same enrollment? Is there enough for them to form a B+?

Wahpeton. Haha. Maybe Central Cass is a few years. But, no there is not really enough to form a great middle class but one of 24 would be manageable. I think they belong in B because they just fit better with the B's than with the A's.

[anyballgame45]

How about If your enrollment is over 1000 or 1200 you have two teams. Now everyone including the smallest schools have a chance to compete and the larger schools have more kids particpate.

[ndbasketballfan007]

Does anyone know how good they are going to be next year

[Dueces]

It is dumb. They can't compete and shouldn't have to play a Class A schedule. They are Class B in every essence. They aren't even the best Class B team now, so obviously they belong there.

The issue wasn't so much with them competing with the Class B teams, it was more in how it was handled putting them there. And FYI, they are going into the district tournament as the #1 seed with only two losses on the year, one being to a Minnesota team that beat West Fargo earlier in the year.

[Run4Fun2009]

It is dumb. They can't compete and shouldn't have to play a Class A schedule. They are Class B in every essence. They aren't even the best Class B team now, so obviously they belong there.

The issue wasn't so much with them competing with the Class B teams, it was more in how it was handled putting them there. And FYI, they are going into the district tournament as the #1 seed with only two losses on the year, one being to a Minnesota team that beat West Fargo earlier in the year.

They have 4 losses on the season...Breckenridge (MN), Central Prairie, Grafton and Oak Grove

[luvmyb]

It is dumb. They can't compete and shouldn't have to play a Class A schedule. They are Class B in every essence. They aren't even the best Class B team now, so obviously they belong there.

The issue wasn't so much with them competing with the Class B teams, it was more in how it was handled putting them there. And FYI, they are going into the district tournament as the #1 seed with only two losses on the year, one being to a Minnesota team that beat West Fargo earlier in the year.

The 2nd loss was to the team that just knocked off Linton. CP Firebirds

[heimer]

I wrote this one. Not someone claiming to be me, or visa versa.

EDC to Hi-Liners: All or None
By Ryan Cunningham NewsDakota.com

February 24

Valley City--The Eastern Dakota Conference (EDC) had a stern message for the Hi-Liner athletic program yesterday in a scheduling meeting. The message basically put a gun to the Hi-Liners' head.

While there has been no official word from Valley City Public Schools, a source close to the meeting said that EDC teams will not allow separate teams from Valley City to be members, while others are not.

According to the source, Hi-Liner Athletic Director Al Cruchet approached the EDC with the possibility of the Hi-Liners playing an EDC schedule in boys athletics, namely wrestling and basketball, while playing independent in girls basketball. There was no word on volleyball.

EDC officials, in a split decision, told Cruchet that no team would be allowed into the EDC unless all became members.

Should the Hi-Liners choose to play independent, they would be unable to take a bottom seed into the EDC tournament, effectively eliminating any post-season participation for any athlete, individually or as a team.

This decision runs opposite of what the EDC allowed Grafton to do at the end of their Class "A" run in the early 2000's. In their final year, they played their girls in a complete EDC schedule, but their boys played independent, focused their schedule on teams in Class "B" District 3 and 4, and took the automatic 11 seed into the EDC tournament.

There were 11 teams in the tournament at that time, as Jamestown and Valley City were added to the current eight-team conference.

The source said that the reversal of the decision was based on the fact that Valley City will be a Class "A" school in the long-term, where as Grafton was confirmed to be in it's final year of "A" membership.

The source, who participated in the meeting, said, "None of us want to deal with this. We were fine with the decision to move Valley City to Class "B". It should have been done on a two-year basis, allowing time to sort the issue out."

The source went on to say, "I was sympathic to Valley City's position, and I was willing to work with them on scheduling. But majority rules."

The Hi-Liner girls basketball team was 1-79 in their final four years of EDC competition. They have advanced to a state qualifier in volleyball only once in the past 10 years, and were defeated.

Cruchet did confirm that both teams will play in the Barnes County Tournament next season, meaning the Hi-Liners will continue to play some Class "B" competition.

However, the source said there was word that there were strained relations between the Hi-Liners and some teams that pooled to move the Hi-Liners back to "A", which will likely affect the teams scheduled.

[Bisonguy06]

Ryan, you have an incredible knack for stirring up controversy.

I'll let you know where I agree and disagree with you:

I agree that Valley City High School should have the option of playing an independent schedule if they want to. I have always stood by precedent, as you know. If Grafton could play independent, Valley City should be able to as well.

I disagree with your use of the imagery of a gun to the head of Valley City administration. We are talking about the scheduling of high school athletics here, not life and death! Come on man... don't blow this out of proportion. Show some professionalism in the language that you are choosing.

I agree with the EDC guy saying they never should have had to deal with this in the first place. But here's why: Valley City never should've been moved to 'B.' Even you have to admit that the NDHSAA's method of moving the enrollment line a year ago was wrong.

I disagree with the first paragraph in a separate article that you wrote for NewsDakota. Here it is: "After action by District 5 teams forced the Hi-Liners back to Class "A" for 2010-11, they had to embark on scheduling for next season." And here's why it's wrong: SEVENTY schools put the Hi-Liners back into class A, after misguided actions by the NDHSAA forced the Hi-Liners to play one year of 'B.'

I agree with VCHS's interest in playing an independent girls schedule. Their girls' basketball program is in shambles. They need to rebuild from the ground up by getting kids excited about playing at an early age. I believe VCHS had a losing record in class B this year and got blown out by several schools, all of whom are smaller than they are. VCHS should be getting A LOT more (in terms of athletics) out of their student body of 375. They barely squeaked into the regional tournament by finishing third in one of the weakest districts in the state this year. They are not ready to compete in A, they're not close, and they can't possibly get girls excited about playing a class A basketball schedule any time soon.

I disagree with the way you are injecting your opinion into a piece you are writing for "NewsDakota.com." You're not writing for "OpinionDakota.com." And if they're paying you to give your opinion and to become the advocate for Valley City High School, and Valley City State University, come right out and state that you're giving your opinion. I've followed the way you've been advocating for VCSU's NAIA ranking, and you do have a case, but is that your job? Your website has links for "news" and "sports." I don't see any of your colleagues editorializing in their work. The local print and radio media guys in my neck of the woods see it as their job to bring us the story of local high school and college athletics WITHOUT bias or opinion injected throughout. This is basic journalism 101 stuff here. Are you a sports writer or an opinion writer? Are you a play-by-play radio guy or a commentator?

While we're at it, I disagree with almost all of your opinions.

I agree with your right to your opinion. Go ahead and speak your mind on North Dakota Preps or your own radio show or almost anywhere where you clearly label your work as your opinion.

I disagree with your sneaky method of injecting your opinion into articles submitted as news.

I agree with your willingness to attach your media work to your "heimer" preps identity. I just wish you'd claim all your work on preps.

[heimer]

District 5 schools brought the action. Without their action, nothing to vote on.

Obviously, you're the only one that took the imagery literally. The point of the statement is that the EDC forced the Hi-Liners to leverage one wrestler qualifying for state against the entire girls basketball program.

99% of all media has opinion factored in it's presentation. I am paid to write based on the view of Valley City High School and Valley City State University, not your viewpoint or anyone elses.

I could care less about you agreeing or disagreeing with me.

I am the only one to identify myself by name on this site.

Go back to your Class "B" board now, and just so you know, I won't be taking any career advice from you anytime soon. I'm very good at my job, and if you were as good, you'd be doing it.

Run along and play now.

[balla45]

Just so everyone knows, Steve34 and Heimer are not the same person.

[Bisonguy06]

Just so everyone knows, Steve34 and Heimer are not the same person.

I don't believe this, but it's not worth a fight. Let's just say that Heimer handled my criticism the same way Steve has in the past.

Heimer, I am not interested in yet another long, drawn out Valley City debate with you. If you are being paid to promote VCHS and VCSU and their interests, then yes, you do a heck of a job with that. Most schools do not have their own advocate in the media. Maybe I am just jealous.

And since I graduated from a North Dakota class A high school, I will continue to read and respond to the class A threads as I please.

Good day.

[Bisonguy06]

District 5 schools brought the action. Without their action, nothing to vote on.

Obviously, you're the only one that took the imagery literally. The point of the statement is that the EDC forced the Hi-Liners to leverage one wrestler qualifying for state against the entire girls basketball program.

Of course I did not take the 'gun to the head' image literally, but it was a poor choice of words.

The one thing we can agree on is that the whole Valley City thing has been a debacle on so many levels. Adults have screwed this thing up and kids are having to pay the price. I don't like what the EDC did here. It would be a very minor inconvenience to allow the VCHS girls to play an independent schedule. They should have that option.

Let's stop with the 'run along' nonsense. You and I are virtually the same age. We don't agree on much, but I do agree with most of your analysis of the EDC. Cheers.

[balla45]

Just so everyone knows, Steve34 and Heimer are not the same person.

I don't believe this, but it's not worth a fight. Let's just say that Heimer handled my criticism the same way Steve has in the past.

Heimer, I am not interested in yet another long, drawn out Valley City debate with you. If you are being paid to promote VCHS and VCSU and their interests, then yes, you do a heck of a job with that. Most schools do not have their own advocate in the media. Maybe I am just jealous.

And since I graduated from a North Dakota class A high school, I will continue to read and respond to the class A threads as I please.

Good day.

There was a very long discussion in the moderator forum about this. If they were the same person, they both would have been banned. Email and I.P. addresses tell a lot.

[Bisonguy06]

A person can very easily create multiple email addresses. They can also write from multiple IPs (home and work, for example). No one will definitively prove that heimer is steve, and that's ok. I'm just saying that it's possible.

[balla45]

Actually never mind. They are most likely the same individual, now that I look at some more things.

[Bisonguy06]

Thank you.

[heimer]

Bisonguy,

I have no problem making the small admission that I write with a heavy pro-Valley City bias. As I said, 99% of all media has a heavy bias toward someone or something or some issue. We have conservative talk, liberal talk, sports coverage that favors certain markets, the list goes on and on.

I posted my article to illustrate one thing. I'm not going to get back into the "B vs. A" debate or the "LaMoure vs. VC" debate. It's clear that you and I will never see eye to eye on it. That wasn't the point of the article. Here's the point:

In several threads on the B side, in your advocating against a three-class system, you, and many like you, made the comment (truthfully at the time, based on the Grafton reference) that if the Hi-Liners did not feel the ability to compete in "A", they could choose to play independent, as Grafton did.

What you don't know is that, behind the scenes, I have whole-heartedly agreed with you. I can prove it. I am on a committee that is examining the future of Hi-Liner athletics. We have met semi-regularly throughout this process to discuss where we are going in the future. There has been talk of cutting programs to be more competitive. I feel that is the wrong approach.

No matter what your feelings are on the matter, I do not feel the Hi-Liners will be automatically more competitive in the EDC in basketball by cutting wrestling. The committee doesn't feel that way either. The basis for the argument is that, in this day and age, with the ease of transportation and information exchange, there is no way to funnel kids to a specific sport.

In other words, if the Hi-Liners cut wrestling, the wrestlers will not go play basketball. They will either find a place to wrestle or work. Sure, one or two may find a home in basketball, but not enough to overcome the gap between where the Hi-Liners are and the rest of the EDC.

My argument, through the entire process, has been to play independent and take the bottom seed in the EDC. In my mind, it's this simple: If you're good enough to go to the State A tournament, you're good enough to go on the road and win the play-in over the 7 seed (remember, the bottom is now 10). If you're not good enough to win over the 7 on the road, you don't need to play in the EDC anyway.

Until two days ago, that was an option. The EDC unfairly took the post-season away from anyone playing independent.

Now, Bisonguy, there are a multitude of things I left out of the article because I could not accurately source them. Believe it or not, there are many, many things I do PROFESSIONALLY at my job. Since this is an opinion site, here's what REALLY happened.

When the Hi-Liners began to see the vote coming down the road, they were already planning on losing the vote and the delay amendment. "Straw polling" (making calls to find out the prevailing wind) pretty much indicated that the Hi-Liners were on their way back up in 2010-11.

Planning began. The first salvo was from wrestling. Believe me, the Hi-Liners are anxious to get the heck out of Region I B. So moving back was gladly accepted.

The next salvo was from boys basketball. The Hi-Liners feel that they will have a team that can make a little noise in the EDC next year. How much remains to be seen, but with the ability to win a few, they opted for an EDC schedule.

Girls basketball was not going, period. The Hi-Liners made their thoughts known to the EDC right away. The EDC threatened to revoke their ability to take the bottom seed in the tournament, disqualifying their right to play in the post-season.

The Hi-Liner response was brilliant. They told the EDC that they were fine with that. They would play independent, and tell their players that the Barnes County is your post-season. You get one tournament, so do your best to win it.

So the EDC manufactured this new policy that has no foundation and is anti-precedent. If the girls played independent, they would disqualify every Hi-Liner team from the post-season and the league. In other words:

No regional or state cross-country
No regional or state tennis
No regional or state music
No regional or state volleyball
No regional or state girls basketball
No regional or state boys basketball
No regional or state debate
No regional or state drama
No regional or state dance
No regional or state wrestling, team or INDIVIDUAL
No regional or state golf
No regional or state baseball
No regional or state track and field

In other words, if Al Cruchet thought for a second that any one wrestler was good enough to qualify for state in his weight class, or that any one sprinter or thrower was good enough to qualify for state, or any one golfer was good enough, etc. etc., he would have to succumb and make the girls play EDC basketball. The only activity safe was speech, since speech is technically a WDA team (no idea why).

I don't know about you, but if I were in that position, I'd feel like a guy was put to my head. The EDC actively sought out a way to screw the Hi-Liners and they found it.

Now, if you really want opinion, I feel the EDC is putting a gun to your head as well, Bisonguy. The reason: I believe any action, by nature, has a corresponding motive. What's the motive here? Like you said, it's a minor inconvenience (if any, really) for the EDC to allow the girls to play independent. That can't be the motive. I don't see the good EDC girls teams gaining a lot from their games with Valley City. So, what's the motive?

Personally, I feel the EDC truly believes the state needs a three-class system, and they mean to prove it by beating the Hi-Liners back into the dark ages. Now, in your mind, that won't prove anything that the program is in bad shape.

And Bisonguy, I'll throw you a bone on this one. Maybe your right, to an extent. You'd be surprised what we've talked about in committee. 90% of the conversation has been about reclaiming the youth programs in basketball. The committee believes they are a wreck, myself included. We basically leave it up to the athletes to decide how good they want to be until they are in 7th grade. They are way behind, and the coaches, no matter how good, can't catch them up to compete. We saw the effects of this this year. That approach is good enough to sneak into the region (Region III girls) but from there it's awfully tough. There's no way that approach works in "A".

But, no matter how you feel about it, the winds of the three-class debate are changing. That's not an opinion, thats fact. Five years ago, I would have given you 1000 bucks for every person in District 5 you could convince (you being figurative, I know you wouldn't have taken the job) that three classes is needed. Now, they are working with Valley City to have a plan to vote on by the end of the school year. There is a very good chance that 2010-11 will be the last year of a two-division system. A year full of beatings will only make the cause more sympathetic, and the EDC guaranteed that by taking the action they did.

For the record, Bisonguy, I have never advocated a three-division system as my TOP choice for restructuring. I have always favored applying the 80-40 principle to A, and expanding the A class. I have strongly advocated the modeling A after the NCAA tournament, guaranteeing some small-school representation at the state A, through an expansion of the class to, say, 28-32 teams, maybe two spots, and giving the big small schools something to play for while technically being A.

Before you go off on me about how my posts match someone elses, you ought to understand that you have no access to my e-mail, phone, or private messages. If you could hear some of those, you'd understand why I got pretty torked off. And you have no idea what I lost here at the station. You have no idea how I'm reacting to that, and if you think what's gone on so far is surprising, wait to see what happens after the season is over.

But for now, I'd appreciate you not telling me how to do my job. I am the only person on this board that has publicly stated who I am. Not you, not Mitch Carlson, not LaMoure coaches (all of whom I suspect have usernames), nor anyone else. All of you hide in anonymity, taking shots at me for being open and up to the criticism. That's how real broadcasters handle their business. I don't know what you do for a living, and I wouldn't presume to tell you how to do it better. I assume you're pretty good at what you do. So am I. You can hate on my for my opinions, and you can hate on me for how I express them here. But I care about my job, I put a sh!t ton of hours into it, and for you to take pot shots at me for how I do it while yourself not being on the record for who you are is out of line, and cowardly. Thanks for listening (reading).