VC coming back to class A

[heimer]

First, Avidsportsfan went on to state that Valley City kept pressing. VC did not. They took it off after a two minute stretch of the second half. They did not continue to do this. Lie #1.

He went on to state that Class B teams don't press when they are not in danger of losing. Lie #2. I've seen it plenty of times, and at times when I've been broadcasting for the team doing it (1996 girls season). I've also seen it done by teams I was broadcasting against.

Do I know Avid is from LaMoure. No. Call it an educated guess. It would fit because we're talking about a group of people that sold the story that the Hi-Liners wanted to move down because "they wanted to win a Class B state title, since they have the team to do it." That's a direct quote from a LaMoure official, and it's the lie that started this mess.

[Bisonguy06]

I read everything Avid wrote in this thread. His quote was "pressing off and on." I quoted him. His quote as it reads is an accurate description of the first three quarters.

Avid's opinion is that pressing with a big lead is strictly a class A tactic. I think he's wrong here, but his comment is still opinion-based. Anyone can cite examples of teams doing this in class A and B. Anyone can also come up with many more examples of class A and B teams who would never press with a 40 point lead. He made a blanket statement. People can always poke holes in those.

A "lie" is when you know one thing to be true but you say the opposite. I think Avid truly believes that class A teams run up the score by pressing and class B teams don't. I think his opinion is wrong, but I don't think he "lied." There's a difference.

I very frequently feel that you form your opinions based on the wrong set of facts. I feel that you aren't aware of some facts, you ignore other facts, and you over-emphasize the facts that you know. But I have never once called you a liar. That's an emotionally charged word. This is an opinion-based forum. We can't just go around calling everyone with a different opinion a liar.

The "mess" started long before your one quote from a LaMoure official.

And I've never heard someone state that he was "broadcasting against" a team. Most radio guys broadcast for their station, not for or against a particular team. You're a self-admitted Valley City homer, and that's the way you call a game. I get it. Just be prepared to deal with the fact that not everyone is a homer for the same team that you are.

[utilityman]

Cunningham calls the game as a VC fan when he does VC games, I don't see a problem with that. When he calls games that he has no "favorites" in he does a great job. After listening to McKenzie and Metko do play by play my assertion is Cunningham calls a game WAY better. Now I'm not knocking the other two announcers, I just don't feel that they call the game as good. Yesterday during the VC PBK game MM said the wrong score three times in a row, I'm trying to work and listen to the game, I hear VC 23 PBK 17, I'm like what??? then I hear VC 23 PBK 10 then I hear VC 30 PBK 7, I look to a co-worker and say what the heck is the score and we both just started laughing.

Can someone enlighten me why RC is not doing the district 5 games? Is it because of complaints from another town or school? I can't figure out why a VC radio station woulldn't have their best play by play guy doing there own schools games.

[heimer]

Utility, I say thanks for the compliments, but I want you to know that Mark McKenzie is my guy, and you can't judge what he does based on a 92-38 game in the district. Neither of us ever take games off, but Mark does his best work with the Jimmies, just like I do my best work with the Vikings. The games are better, faster, the players are bigger and stronger, and it's just a better game for a good broadcast, no insult intended to high school games anywhere.

Yesterday was the first day Mark saw either team. That's tough enough. 92-38 just can't keep you mentally sharp. I had issues with a girls CC vs. MV game in the district that, at one time, was 40-0. I would hate to have my ability judged on that game.

One thing I will say is that the LaMoure crowd trashing me behind the scenes absolutely loved how I called games during the State B tournament, since I was calling games "for them". I guess it wasn't unconditional love, and that goes both ways.

[Indy5]

Avidsportster's IP address is NOT from LaMoure. I suppose that doesn't mean he isn't a LaMoure supporter, but judging it was from another in-district town, I don't think he would be. But maybe.

[EHS1998]

Do I know Avid is from LaMoure. No. Call it an educated guess. It would fit because we're talking about a group of people that sold the story that the Hi-Liners wanted to move down because "they wanted to win a Class B state title, since they have the team to do it." That's a direct quote from a LaMoure official, and it's the lie that started this mess.

I have tried very hard to defend you Heimer, but I have to take issue with a couple of things.

On an "educated guess" you denigrated a community by saying they are liars on your radio program with zero substantiation? Thats not very responsible.

No, that is NOT what started "this mess". What started "this mess" is the NDHSAA acting independently and moving the enrollment cut off without a vote of its member schools, which has subsequently resulted in a Class A school playing in a Class B district for a year. I have yet to hear you specifically speak to this point, and I am not holding my breath for you to ever address it.

[wildcatfan]

After reading about the PBK and VC game I assumed that VC was a pressing team????? I hate it when a superior team (VC) presses an inferior team(PBK) and then doesn't do it the next night. I only saw VC press LaMoure tonight a couple of times and it was just token pressure. I feel there was no need to press PBK on Friday, but I wanted to wait to see what they would do against LaMoure, now I'll see what they do against LMM on Monday. Congradulations to both teams and looking forward to a great championship game.

As far as Ryan doing play-by-play, I think he is one of the best. He really keeps you in the game and can visualize what is going on - on the court. He is a homer for Valley City and should be, that is who's paying him,but when he is not doing a valley game I think he is very nuetral. I think that Mark does a good job also, Medko - sorry still needs some more experience.

I have heard of all the problems that the VC crowd, student body has been accused of. This is my first Valley City game to watch, and thought they did a great job of cheering for their team. I think they just showed great school spirit that every school used to have 10 - 15 years ago.

Just my 2 cents

[Bisonguy06]

I agree that Ryan a solid play-by-play guy with a good radio voice in the little bit that I have heard of him on the air. He is a self-admitted homer, and there's not necessarily anything wrong with that.

What's wrong is that he has become such a VC homer that he is blind to any other point of view. He'll support and defend anything from the NDHSAA that works out in Valley City's favor. So EHS, you're right, don't count on him addressing what actually started "this mess." "This mess" is resulting in some sympathy for Valley City and might ultimately swing enough votes for a 3 class plan that never had majority support before "this mess." The means don't matter to him if the end result gets Valley City out of class A basketball. Too bad for VCHS that 70 North Dakota schools think that the means matter.

[sports4ever]

First, Avidsportsfan went on to state that Valley City kept pressing. VC did not. They took it off after a two minute stretch of the second half. They did not continue to do this. Lie #1.

In looking back at that post, avid states in quote "They pressed a team off and on last night for a win of something like 92-39. They were never in danger of losing and continued to do this to a young team."

Wow, heimer, you read that differently than it is stated, maybe don't repost what someone has posted unless you direct quote it. If I didn't go back and read it and just assumed that you didn't misquote, I get a total different message here. So NOT a lie, as you incorrectly state (My opinion).

I listened to the game on the radio and had heard they were pressing in the third quarter for sure. As I listened and customers were coming in, I couldn't follow it closely after that to know at this point if they were indeed pressing more than two minutes as you state. BUT, the fact is that it was stated on your radio station that they were pressing. From the way I read it, avid does not state what you say, and it is debatable by anyone as to what are the intentions of a team to come out and press for two minutes (if assuming that is correct) when the lead is as stated by bisonguy. Not many would support any reason (although some would, I guess) for doing this to a team of young individuals, not to say it hasn't been done. That is how some coach, while others don't have respect for that. Not going to debate it, but it isn't a lie, and looks like avid threw that out there as it WAS done....didn't state time length.

Quote from you, "He went on to state that Class B teams don't press when they are not in danger of losing. Lie #2." In generalizing something, I would guess that avid is right. Typically they don't, that is not to say that it hasn't happened on occasion (and won't continue to happen). When it is done, questions may be raised, respect issues, what are we teaching our kids, etc. But, not every coach is the same, and not every coach (OPINION), should be coaching. But, that is just the way it goes, and that is not everyones' OPINION.

I'd be interested as to how one person can carry so much weight and sell a story, but I am not sure about the mess you insinuate. Now, I am guessing that is also OPINION and not necessarily FACT.

[heimer]

EHS, you sleep in the bed you make for yourself. LaMoure officials told anyone who would listen that Valley City's only motive in moving down was that they thought they had a team capable of winning a state title. One told me this directly over the phone. This is not third-party stuff, this is direct conversation. It is a total lie, meaning that LaMoure officials lied during this process. They made it out to be something it was not. Sorry, but the lying that has gone on through "this mess" has come from LaMoure.

Also, I did not denigrate an entire community. There are more people in LaMoure than the ones that lie about Valley City. The more people I talk to, or hear from, from there, the more I suspect the community, as a whole, was probably split about 50/50 on this situation. But the majority of the people that are lying about Valley City's motives are from LaMoure.

You and Bisonguy do the same thing here. You denigrate Valley City because of it's proximity to the HSAA offices, knowing full well that the decisions that are made have nothing to do with that fact. The decision makers that moved the number were from all over the state, and NONE of them were from Valley City. Add to that the fact that not all people from Valley City were in favor of the move. Yet, the two of you come in here and stomp all over Valley City, as a whole, and accuse me of doing to LaMoure the exact same thing you do to Valley City.

I'll acknowledge that not all of LaMoure was involved with this decision when you and Bisonguy acknowledge that not a single Valley City person voted to move Valley City to "B", and that any team could have brought their delegation to an HSAA meeting to ask for a change, just like Valley City did. Had the meeting been in Fargo, or Bismarck, or Ellendale, or Bottineau, or wherever, the result would have been the same. Nine board of director members from places like Grafton, Wyndmere, Center, etc., listened to officials and VCHS and made a decision. The executive secretary didn't vote, none of his assisants voted. No one from Valley City voted, and the fact that the HSAA office is in Valley City made no difference. The same people from VCHS would have driven anywhere the meeting was going to be. I'm only playing by your rules.

[EHS1998]

Heimer - I actually have no problem with anyone in Valley City or the fact that some people from Valley City pushed for a move to Class B, it is their right and it certainly seems to be working out for them this year, whatever the true motivation was. I obviously cant speak to why they wanted to move so I wont. I actually think it is nice for them to taste the success they have had, despite the circumstances. I wish them the best of luck next year in the class the NDHSAA bylaws state they belong.

I have always been critical of the NDHSAA for making the move without a vote of the member schools. I stand by that criticism. Yes, some time ago I made reference to where the NDHSAA offices are, which is in Valley City. If that is simply coincedence, I stand corrected.

[heimer]

It is most definitely coincidence. The offices in VC are not the HSAA offices. The HSAA has no offices. The offices here are for the executive secretary and his staff. They have no role in making policy, they only institute policy.

Saying the HSAA only did this because it's in Valley City is the same as a criminal blaming the jailer because he's locked up, when the jailer only did what the judge told him to do. The judge isn't in the jail.

In this case, the judge was a 9-person Board of Directors. There are normally 10 on that board, but one abstained from his vote, because he is the high school principal of Valley City. The other nine are from all over. I cannot remember the location of all, but here is what I can remember of the group:

Royal Lyson--Center (I think Center, or Stanton, one of the two. Someone help me here)
Pete Moe--Washburn
Rick Jacobson--Wyndmere
Jeff Schatz--Fargo
Jack Maus--Grafton
Steve Swiontek--Devils Lake

Also, everyone keeps yelping about the 70 schools that votes to move the line back. The Board of Directors, a group chosen for its ability to look at the entire landscape of athletics in the state, not just their particular school, voted 9-0 to make this move. When LaMoure and Edgeley initially appealed the move, there was another audience with the BOD, and they still voted 6-3 to keep the move where it was. Sure, 70 schools can over their own tail by voting for only their interests. But the Board of Directors had the clarity to see it differently.

[Bisonguy06]

I have certainly tried to keep my criticism focused on the DECISIONS made by the NDHSAA and not directed at the good and decent people of Valley City and their high school.

[Hinsa]

It is most definitely coincidence. The offices in VC are not the HSAA offices. The HSAA has no offices. The offices here are for the executive secretary and his staff. They have no role in making policy, they only institute policy.

I have to take exception with your premise that the executive secretary and his staff have no role in making policy. In my opinion, that is utter b.s. For as long as I have been around ND high school athletics, and that's been a long time, the executive secretary has had the power to institute whatever changes he wants to make. No, the exec scty doesn't vote on policy, but he sure has the ear of the board.

Bob King was famous for making off the record statements that changes would happen "over his dead body." And that kind of power still resides with the exec scty.

[heimer]

You're entitled to your opinions Mr. K. I was there. He didn't speak. At all.

[Hinsa]

Do you think the exec secty makes his wishes known before meetings?

[digger]

You're entitled to your opinions Mr. K. I was there. He didn't speak. At all.

Most effective boards (in general; corporate, non-profit, etc.) have decisions made before the meeting begins. They try and stick to the agenda as close as possible, allow discussion, but move ahead from one item to the next. A good board chairman has his/her ducks in a row ahead of time. It can be frustrating for those members that might be of a different mind on a particular issue, but folks usually understand that's how it works. Most of the work gets done before the meeting. Just a general observation based upon experience.

[Bisonguy06]

It is true that no one from VCHS got to cast a vote that moved them to 'B.' It is also true that VCHS lobbied for years for any solution that took them out of class A basketball. It's also true that any school can lobby in the same way that VCHS did.

However, it certainly doesn't hurt their cause that the HSAA operates from Valley City. The executive secretary and staff are certainly more in-tune with any chatter regarding VCHS than they would be if their offices were located in Watford City. Heck, even I would probably become more sympathetic to VCHS's cause if I spent more time in the city, but a person should try to think beyond the interests of just one school.

I'll never be able to prove a direct link between VCHS and NDHSAA decision-making, although it smells fishy. All I know from afar is that Valley City was treated differently than Beulah or Grafton and that the Board of Directors broke with precedent to move the enrollment cut off.

The 70 schools were simply saying to the Board of Directors, "the enrollment cut off is our decision, not yours."

[Indy5]

It is true that no one from VCHS got to cast a vote that moved them to 'B.' It is also true that VCHS lobbied for years for any solution that took them out of class A basketball. It's also true that any school can lobby in the same way that VCHS did.

However, it certainly doesn't hurt their cause that the HSAA operates from Valley City. The executive secretary and staff are certainly more in-tune with any chatter regarding VCHS than they would be if their offices were located in Watford City. Heck, even I would probably become more sympathetic to VCHS's cause if I spent more time in the city, but a person should try to think beyond the interests of just one school.

I'll never be able to prove a direct link between VCHS and NDHSAA decision-making, although it smells fishy. All I know from afar is that Valley City was treated differently than Beulah or Grafton and that the Board of Directors broke with precedent to move the enrollment cut off.

The 70 schools were simply saying to the Board of Directors, "the enrollment cut off is our decision, not yours."

I think Valley City should be able to play "B" ball and maybe the line should still be at 325. Still let them drop because they are in such a bad spot. But that doesn't really matter for now, my question is, why didn't these schools do this right away in the season. They waited until Valley City was a 1 seed in their district and had a good year and then brought this up. Maybe Mitch Carlson was trying to get this done sooner but I think it certainly helped his case in getting votes from netrual schools that he did it when he did. By doing this once Valley City had a successful year, the schools in the southwest and northwest who had no stake in this matter and didn't really care probably thought "Wow they are good, they probably shouldn't be class B."

[Bisonguy06]

The schools voted the way they did based on the principle that the board of directors never should've moved the enrollment line. They never should've taken that decision out of the hands of the schools.

Class B schools don't necessarily have a problem with Valley City being successful. They took issue with the process that moved them to 'B.'

[heimer]

Indy, in defense of Mitch Carlson, he notified Valley City of his intention to pursue the amendment shortly after the beginning of the school year. LaMoure never intended to use any success/failure by VC in their argument. The vote happened when it did because LaMoure expected VC to propose a three-class plan first.

There was kind of a gentleman's agreement on the deal. Here is the timeline on this:

1. HSAA BOD votes to move the line to 400 (August, 2008)
2. BOD places VC in District 5 for 2009-10 (Sept-Oct, 2008)
3. LaMoure and Edgeley lodge their initial protest (same)
4. Audience held with BOD to change limit back--move fails (Oct, 2008)
5. General Assembly audience held
a) VC agrees to opt up in forensics (speech, debate, music, etc)
b) LaMoure and Edgeley agree to allow one year of VC in B
c) All agree the year will be used to pursue a three-class plan (Jan, 2009)
6. BOD floats a (dreadful) three-class plan
a) holds statewide audiences on plan
b) audiences reject the plan (March-April, 2009)
7. State ends talk of a three-class plan, content to leave VC in B
8. LaMoure and Edgeley inform VCHS of their intention (Sept, 2009)
9. General Assembly vote--line moved back (January 2010)

[EHS1998]

Indy, in defense of Mitch Carlson, he notified Valley City of his intention to pursue the amendment shortly after the beginning of the school year. LaMoure never intended to use any success/failure by VC in their argument. The vote happened when it did because LaMoure expected VC to propose a three-class plan first.

There was kind of a gentleman's agreement on the deal. Here is the timeline on this:

1. HSAA BOD votes to move the line to 400 (August, 2008)
2. BOD places VC in District 5 for 2009-10 (Sept-Oct, 2008)
3. LaMoure and Edgeley lodge their initial protest (same)
4. Audience held with BOD to change limit back--move fails (Oct, 2008)
5. General Assembly audience held
a) VC agrees to opt up in forensics (speech, debate, music, etc)
b) LaMoure and Edgeley agree to allow one year of VC in B
c) All agree the year will be used to pursue a three-class plan (Jan, 2009)
6. BOD floats a (dreadful) three-class plan
a) holds statewide audiences on plan
b) audiences reject the plan (March-April, 2009)
7. State ends talk of a three-class plan, content to leave VC in B
8. LaMoure and Edgeley inform VCHS of their intention (Sept, 2009)
9. General Assembly vote--line moved back (January 2010)

Heimer - I think it says a lot about you that you stepped in here and provided information that defends Mr. Carlson, who I know you have had philosophical differences with previously. Thank you for this timeline as it provides additional information that I was not previously aware of. I am not going to comment anymore on the VC situation because it really is a moot point now and frankly you are much more "in the know" than I am. I do want to sincerely congratulate your Hi Liners on their District 5 Championship. They earned it with hard work and perseveered through some very difficult circumstances. All of those young men are to be applauded. I think that the VC fans actually taught other District 5 team's fans about getting behind a team and they brought an atmosphere to the JCC that frankly has been lacking in previous years. I hope that the work that is being done to find a better solution for the current Class system in ND yields positive results and I thank you for whatever work you are doing in support of that. I wish you could have been there yesterday and I feel it is a shame that you were not. I think you would have been impressed with the effort and play of all the teams that played yesterday, it was a testament to all that is still good in HS basketball.

[Mighty-Mouse]

Thanks for the info, this explains alot

[Zelda]

99% of all media has opinion factored in it's presentation. I am paid to write based on the view of Valley City High School and Valley City State University, not your viewpoint or anyone elses.

Does Valley City High School know this?