Dexter Werner vs. Devin Coyle

[balla45]

I am partial to Coyle, as he is a Mandan guy. I think both of them are All-WDA players this season. As of now, I would give them a tie as the 2nd best player in the 2012 class, behind Daniel Yale.

[King James]

Dexter. He was a starter on a team that was one made shot away from being in the state tournament. He averaged like 7 boards and like 8 points i think, and he was like a 3rd or 4th option in the offense

[balla45]

While Dexter did start, I think Coyle is just as good. He was stuck behind a deep senior class. I think there are at least 6 teams in the WDA that he would have started for last year.

[King James]

He played behind Thilmony and Arneson. If he was legit enough to play last year he would have played in front of Friesz since i recall Friesz was in Horners doghouse for part of the season. Also with his size he could have been in the mix at Jesse Kist's spot who was only in the game for his defense. He only played in 11 games and played 5 minutes a game. If Dexter was playing for Mandan does he play in more than 11 games? i think so.

[balla45]

He played behind Thilmony and Arneson. If he was legit enough to play last year he would have played in front of Friesz since i recall Friesz was in Horners doghouse for part of the season. Also with his size he could have been in the mix at Jesse Kist's spot who was only in the game for his defense. He only played in 11 games and played 5 minutes a game. If Dexter was playing for Mandan does he play in more than 11 games? i think so.

Ask some other WDA coaches if Coyle would have played major minutes for their team. Even if Friesz was in the "doghouse" he led the state in 3point%. Coyle would have been a point guard, not a stand still shooter. Seeing that Thilmony and Arneson both ran the point, and played around 28 minutes per game, there wasn't really much available time for Coyle.

If Dexter plays for Mandan, does he play in more than 11 games, maybe. He would have started the year on the sophomore team and had to prove that he deserved to be moved higher. And with Horner, that is something that is very hard to prove. I also don't see him playing over Tyler Miller, Mike Miller, or Coulee Luger. These players would have had a chance to shine if they weren't playing behind Kielpinski.

Dexter benefited by playing on a team with no true post presence other than himself. That would be like Coyle playing on a team without Thilmony and Arneson on it.

Also, with Coyle's size, he could not have played in Kist's spot. Coyle is shorter than me, I am officially measured at 5'11'' with shoes. Coyle is about 5'10'' then. Kist is 6'2'' or 6'3''. That is a difference of 5 inches, and Coyle is an offensive player and scorer, not a star-stopper.

This season Coyle is a 14 point 4 rebound 4 assist type of player. Can you say Werner is a 16 point 8 rebound player? I think that these are comparable numbers.

[King James]

No disrespect to Coulee or the Millers but in my opinion, Dexter would have played over both of them. What I'm saying with Coyle playing in Kist's spot is that it would have been a 4 or 5 man rotation. If Kist came out, Coyle would come in and play the 2 with Thilmony moving to the 3, which could have been an option if Coyle was ready. If BHS had Kielpinski, Dexter would still have found his way in to the rotation. It doesn't matter if BHS had a true post, Dexter was given the opportunity and he performed above expectations. Dexter probably won't be a 16 and 8 guy this year because Jalen Finley will want to score, Thorton will score, Caley Fox will want to score, Dewayne Liggins is a scorer, Jake Miller, Nick Jollife, and Jaxon Fitterer may contribute, Leighton Talmadge may contribute. BHS will not need Werner to be a 16 and 8 guy, but I think Miller would be happy with him being a 10 and 10 guy, which is possible.

I edited so it was easier to understand.

[squeak63]

i personally think a 10 points 10 reb average would be complarable to the stats maurer is predicting for coyle... anyone else agree?

[balla45]

No disrespect to Coulee or the Millers but in my opinion, Dexter would have played over both of them. What I'm saying with Coyle playing in Kist's spot is that it would have been a 4 or 5 man rotation. If Kist came out, Coyle would come in and play the 2 with Thilmony moving to the 3, which could have been an option if Coyle was ready. If BHS had Kielpinski, Dexter would still have found his way in to the rotation. It doesn't matter if BHS had a true post or not, Dexter was given the oppurtunity and he performed above expectations. Dexter probably won't be a 16 and 8 guy this year because Jalen Finley will want to score, Thorton will score, Caley Fox will want to score, Dewayne Liggins is a scorer, Jake Miller, Nick Jollife, and Jaxon Fitterer may contribute, Leighton Talmadge may contribute. BHS will not need Werner to be a 16 and 8 guy, but I think Miller would be happy with him being a 10 and 10 guy, which is possible.

Tyler Miller is a better basketball player than Dexter Werner. He is taller, quicker, more athletic, and a better shooter, as a person 4 years older should be, but he is still a better player. I have played both with and against them and I will say Tyler is better, because he can do many more things. I would say the same for Mike Miller, and Coulee and Werner are close, and Coulee did not get much playing time.

If Kist came out, Tyler or Mike would come in and defend whomever Kist was defending. Thilmony is not a defensive stopper, so he could not have slid over and played Kist's spot.

Mandan's coaching staff would say that Coyle was ready to play, he just wasn't needed.

If BHS had Kielpinski, Werner would have most likely found his way into the line up, however, the systems that MHS and BHS use are very different. BHS likes a double low post with a cross screen and a pop to the free throw line, MHS likes a motion offense.

If Dexter was playing for Mandan, I don't see whose playing time he is going to take. He isn't a guard, so he isn't going to effect Thilmony or Arneson. He isn't a perimeter stopper, so he isn't taking playing time away from Kist or the Millers. He isn't taking time away from Kielpinski or myself. So that would leave a few minutes a game where Kielpinski is out. Basically what Coyle got, a few minutes a game where Arneson and Thilmony were out.

i personally think a 10 points 10 reb average would be complarable to the stats maurer is predicting for coyle... anyone else agree?

And to Squeak63, yes I think a double double average is comparable to 14 4 and 4.

[Mighty-Mouse]

Truthful, how can you compare a guard to a center. Aren't they two different positions, different responsiblities? Why don't we just say Dex can't guard Devin on defense in a man-to-man... or Devin try to guard Dex. It's just not going to happen.

Both are good players and are only going to get better. It's gonna be fun to follow them.

It would be better if you compared Dex to a center, like BK or another one. And Devin to Thorton. This would make more sense to me.

[balla45]

Truthful, how can you compare a guard to a center. Aren't they two different positions, different responsiblities? Why don't we just say Dex can't guard Devin on defense in a man-to-man... or Devin try to guard Dex. It's just not going to happen.

Both are good players and are only going to get better. It's gonna be fun to follow them.

It would be better if you compared Dex to a center, like BK or another one. And Devin to Thorton. This would make more sense to me.

While they are difficult positions to compare, it has to be done to argue the best player in a class, which is basically what this argument is. I am all for comparing like positions, but when it comes to end of season awards and such, positions will not matter. I have no problem saying that Coyle is the best guard, Yale the best forward, and Werner the best big man, in the 2012 class, but to discuss the best player in the 2012 class in class A, we must compare the 2.

For example, last year, Mr. Basketball came down to a point guard (Malzer) and a post player (Qvale.) I could see this happening for WDA SAOTY 2012.

Comparing Werner to Kielpinski or Coyle to Thorton would be solid, but we would almost have to do it at similar times in their lives. Werner does not hold a candle to Kielpinski, and shouldn't, and the same can be said of Coyle and Thorton.

[Mighty-Mouse]

Truthful, how can you compare a guard to a center. Aren't they two different positions, different responsiblities? Why don't we just say Dex can't guard Devin on defense in a man-to-man... or Devin try to guard Dex. It's just not going to happen.

Both are good players and are only going to get better. It's gonna be fun to follow them.

It would be better if you compared Dex to a center, like BK or another one. And Devin to Thorton. This would make more sense to me.

While they are difficult positions to compare, it has to be done to argue the best player in a class, which is basically what this argument is. I am all for comparing like positions, but when it comes to end of season awards and such, positions will not matter. I have no problem saying that Coyle is the best guard, Yale the best forward, and Werner the best big man, in the 2012 class, but to discuss the best player in the 2012 class in class A, we must compare the 2.

For example, last year, Mr. Basketball came down to a point guard (Malzer) and a post player (Qvale.) I could see this happening for WDA SAOTY 2012.

Comparing Werner to Kielpinski or Coyle to Thorton would be solid, but we would almost have to do it at similar times in their lives. Werner does not hold a candle to Kielpinski, and shouldn't, and the same can be said of Coyle and Thorton.

Then I'll throw into the mix, Maund from Century. He can handle the rock!

[balla45]

Truthful, how can you compare a guard to a center. Aren't they two different positions, different responsiblities? Why don't we just say Dex can't guard Devin on defense in a man-to-man... or Devin try to guard Dex. It's just not going to happen.

Both are good players and are only going to get better. It's gonna be fun to follow them.

It would be better if you compared Dex to a center, like BK or another one. And Devin to Thorton. This would make more sense to me.

While they are difficult positions to compare, it has to be done to argue the best player in a class, which is basically what this argument is. I am all for comparing like positions, but when it comes to end of season awards and such, positions will not matter. I have no problem saying that Coyle is the best guard, Yale the best forward, and Werner the best big man, in the 2012 class, but to discuss the best player in the 2012 class in class A, we must compare the 2.

For example, last year, Mr. Basketball came down to a point guard (Malzer) and a post player (Qvale.) I could see this happening for WDA SAOTY 2012.

Comparing Werner to Kielpinski or Coyle to Thorton would be solid, but we would almost have to do it at similar times in their lives. Werner does not hold a candle to Kielpinski, and shouldn't, and the same can be said of Coyle and Thorton.

Then I'll throw into the mix, Maund from Century. He can handle the rock!

Yes, he is much better than last year. I want to see how he is able to control a game. I have only watched him play a handful of games, and like the other 2, he dominates against his age group, I want to see if he can be a dominant player on the varsity level, and while none have shown that they can do that yet, I have seen more from Werner and Coyle at this point. Another person in the mix would be Jesse Kessel from Dickinson.

[Mighty-Mouse]

It will be four good ones to watch grow up on the court.

[King James]

tyler miller may be the better athlete but he is not a better player. this is one of the few times his name has even been brought up on this site.

[balla45]

tyler miller may be the better athlete but he is not a better player. this is one of the few times his name has even been brought up on this site.

I would rather play with Tyler Miller than Dexter. Dexter can score on the block, only, and doesn't run the floor. Tyler can play multiple positions and I would say that what Tyler did for MHS last season is more than Dexter did for BHS. Tyler would come in and score a quick 4 points while guarding the other team's best player. Defense does matter.

Having your name brought up on this site doesn't really mean anything, considering that we are the primary people bringing people's names up.

Not that this matters, because Coyle is still, in my opinion, the 2nd best player in the 2012 class.

[King James]

Well when we (BHS) would play Mandan our coaches would say a word that would mean to help off this player and don't guard him outside 10 feet. Our scouting report on Miller was the kid doesn't even look at the rim and he's afraid to shoot. He averaged 4 points and 2 boards as a senior. I dont care if he was backing up Kevin Garnett. Dexter was productive as a freshmen. in his coming out party BK had 14 and 8 and if you can hold bryan to that i think most teams will take it. Dexter also scored 13 points in 14 minutes that game. With a couple of blocks. Now the next game Bryan out played him and had the big dunk that changed the whole game otherwise that one may go down to the wire. Now the only game Dex played against Williston Qvale scored 10 and 8. Not bad for a freshmen guarding a guy who was one of the best in ND this year. I would rather play with Dexter he is going to have a better career and have a bigger impact on the game. All of this with no disrepect what so ever to tyler miller. Now you may so Coyle has a state championship and all that but really mandan would have won it without him. Matt Hall won a state championship in Dickinson too, but i think Dickinson could have won it without him.

[balla45]

Well when we (BHS) would play Mandan our coaches would say a word that would mean to help off this player and don't guard him outside 10 feet. Our scouting report on Miller was the kid doesn't even look at the rim and he's afraid to shoot. He averaged 4 points and 2 boards as a senior. I dont care if he was backing up Kevin Garnett. Dexter was productive as a freshmen. in his coming out party BK had 14 and 8 and if you can hold bryan to that i think most teams will take it. Dexter also scored 13 points in 14 minutes that game. With a couple of blocks. Now the next game Bryan out played him and had the big dunk that changed the whole game otherwise that one may go down to the wire. Now the only game Dex played against Williston Qvale scored 10 and 8. Not bad for a freshmen guarding a guy who was one of the best in ND this year. I would rather play with Dexter he is going to have a better career and have a bigger impact on the game. All of this with no disrepect what so ever to tyler miller. Now you may so Coyle has a state championship and all that but really mandan would have won it without him. Matt Hall won a state championship in Dickinson too, but i think Dickinson could have won it without him.

Seeing that Kielpinski only averaged 17 and 8, holding him to 14 and 8 is nothing special. Also, while Dexter did have 13 that game, 6 of them were scored against players other than Kielpinski, with 2 more coming at the end of the second half, after both teams had stopped playing.

Are you saying that Dexter is better because he did more last year? Dexter got to play because his team needed him to. Coyle didn't need to play, and that is why he didn't get to play much. If Thilmony was not playing last year, Coyle would have been starting and getting those shots.

Are all of those Century juniors better than Dewayne Liggins because they got the chance to play and he didn't?

[King James]

No one can prove the Coyle is better right now but you and your teammates. He hasn't done anything on the varsity level to earn the right that he is a better player than dexter werner. If he goes out and does this 14 4 and 4 i will give him props. Right now he doesn't deserve to say he is better than Dexter. They can settle this on the court next year untill that time Dexter has the upper hand

[balla45]

No one can prove the Coyle is better right now but you and your teammates. He hasn't done anything on the varsity level to earn the right that he is a better player than dexter werner. If he goes out and does this 14 4 and 4 i will give him props. Right now he doesn't deserve to say he is better than Dexter. They can settle this on the court next year untill that time Dexter has the upper hand

No one can prove Dexter is better either. He hasn't shown that he is a better player than Coyle. If you take out a 4 overtime game, he averaged what, 6.40 points and 6.80 rebounds, not bad, but nothing that shows me he is hands down the better player, considering he played 20 minutes per game.

Coyle isn't saying he is better than Dexter, he could, but he isn't, I am. What Dexter did last year, start and average 7 and 8 on a 14-11 team. What Coyle did, played on a 24-1 team, won the sophomore tournament, and tore up jv competition for a season, while taking home a title. Also, Coyle has lost a grand total of 5 games in the last 6 years. I think his resume is just as good, if not much better, than Werner's.

[King James]

You cant take down his averages like that because then i can say throw out the game where he played one minute down in wyoming and only played in the 2nd half of the 3rd game in wyoming. Also how many minutes of Coyle's were garbage minutes where its the end of the game and both teams don't care anymore. The most meaningful game he played in was the WDA championship where he played 6 minutes and went 0 for 2 and put up no other stats.

[balla45]

You cant take down his averages like that because then i can say throw out the game where he played one minute down in wyoming and only played in the 2nd half of the 3rd game in wyoming. Also how many minutes of Coyle's were garbage minutes where its the end of the game and both teams don't care anymore. The most meaningful game he played in was the WDA championship where he played 6 minutes and went 0 for 2 and put up no other stats.

I was putting Werner's numbers into context. A 4 overtime game will jack a players stats up, as it is essentially another full half of basketball. I don't know how many of Coyle's minutes were garbage, but what can he do about it, there were many games where Mandan was up by 15-20 five minutes into the second half. Coyle played in 11 of Mandan's final 12 games. And again, when was Coyle supposed to shine? Thilmony, Arneson, Kist, Maurer, Kielpinski, Miller, and Friesz played almost 100% of the time?

While Coyle didn't have a great WDA championship game, why do you use that as your only example? Of course that was the most meaningful game he played in, seeing that it was the WDA championship.

Again, while stats do tell almost everything, why are we comparing the stats? What Coyle was doing on jv is more impressive than what Werner was doing on varsity. Coyle didn't play on a team that made it easy to get on the varsity roster and into the game. Werner did.

[King James]

I recall you coming to BHS to watch our jv's play each other and you telling me dexter is a beast. dexter tore the jv up the 3 or 4 games that he played in. if you want to compare jv go ahead the point is dexter was playing varsity while coyle was watching varsity. lets ask our friend mr horner if he would have played dexter i'm sure he might not tell us because he hates talking about playing time. in the end we will not be able to tell who is better untill november. when mandan plays bhs we will sit by each other and critique each player

[ballernation]

nice debate but i gotta lean towards king james... i have never seen either play but just based on the argument solely kj...

[balla45]

I recall you coming to BHS to watch our jv's play each other and you telling me dexter is a beast. dexter tore the jv up the 3 or 4 games that he played in. if you want to compare jv go ahead the point is dexter was playing varsity while coyle was watching varsity. lets ask our friend mr horner if he would have played dexter i'm sure he might not tell us because he hates talking about playing time. in the end we will not be able to tell who is better untill november. when mandan plays bhs we will sit by each other and critique each player

Dexter is a beast, I am not questioning that, I said he is the 2nd best class A player in 2012. The point is that Dexter was not playing behind talented post players, it would be like Dexter playing behind Akers, Wehri, and Savageau. He would not get playing time, there isn't enough to go around. Coyle just happened to be in that situation in reality.

If I had talked to Horner about this before, I wouldn't be posting his response on this board.

I don't have a problem going to this game though.

[King James]

Dexter is a 5 man. You are a 4, Miller is a 4, Coulee is a 4/5. Volk was a 5. He easily could have backed up Kielpinski.