Wreck it for us, please.

The teams in Class AAA

Wreck it for us, please.

Postby heimer » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:50 am

We hope you have enjoyed two thrilling state title games in the North Dakota "AA" football division in 2009 and 2010, with one decided in overtime, and the other on a field goal with three seconds left.

Apparently, the games have evoked some jealousy in the ranks of "AAA" coaches, and, if they get their way, you may not see it again.

North Dakota's four-class system of football, one that has worked incredibly well over almost two decades and has built an increased excitement and awareness of the game statewide, is under attack, and the proof can be found at the North Dakota High School Activities Association's website.

Class "AAA" coaches, unable to sit down with pencil, paper, and basic math to work out a schedule, are appealing for another increase in the class size, stating in a December, 2009 meeting of the football advisory committee that "AAA likes 16 for the number of schools in that division."

The biggest schools in North Dakota, driven by egotistical activities directors bent on making our state a mirror image of Minnesota, have already hijacked football, forcibly moving Devils Lake back to "AAA" in the interests of basic math, practicing reverse racism by allowing all native american schools to play down a class on the rationale of "free and reduced meals", and most recently, shrugging off the availability of the Alerus Center to cram four state title games into one day at the FargoDome.

I hope you like state title football with your eggs and bacon, and I hope nine-man coaches like the reward of taping ankles at 6:00 a.m. for guiding a team to a state championship game. Fargo certainly will love selling the extra hotel rooms fans will have to get since leaving for the games the day of will be an option only for the AA and AAA schools.

Despite the best efforts of the football committee, high school football is on course to resist destruction and have one of it's best seasons ever. About 10 of the 16 teams in the AA level have a legit chance at winning a conference, A schools with nine-man enrollment continue to beat the odds and opt to play in a division higher, the only sport in the state where that happens.

After all, you don't see any Class "B" basketball teams deciding 10 straight district titles is enough and moving up to play with the big boys. They like winning, and if someone new crashes their party, they do their best to kick them out. That is, however, a longer story.

The AAA coaches, dismayed by the long distances between their communities, have opted for another path, one that will force more schools to join them so they can have a shorter drive to kick the crap out of someone instead of going down the road another hour or so and play someone they should be playing.

At least college teams pay someone to come get beat up for a day. Not schools in Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck, and Minot. They get the NDHSAA to do their dirty work for them, and for free.

The AAA division has 10 schools with male enrollments between 499-1098 (North Dakota Department of Public Instruction male enrollments--http://www.ndhsaa.org/files/11_12_FB_Division.pdf). Ten schools equals a school and nine opponents, and nine opponents equals a regular season.

Basic math the big school coaches refuse to acknowledge. After all, it takes work to beat schools in Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck, and Minot. Why put in the work when the state will gladly serve you Wahpeton and Devils Lake on a platter?

The next 10 largest schools have enrollments between 155 and 487 (same graph). Ten schools equals a school and nine opponents, and nine opponents equals a season. Basic math that, again, the AAA coaches refuse to acknowledge. After all, it takes work to beat.....well, you get the idea.

As someone from Valley City, I should point out that, even if a 16-team AAA division were re-established, Valley City would be spared. Wahpeton and TMCHS (Belcourt) would be added to the current 14, and once the new West Fargo team is established, one of those would be sent back to AA.

There's no personal gain being requested here. This is simply informing football fans in the biggest cities in the state about the path to victories the coaches and activities directors at some of these schools would prefer. It involves running down hill over smaller teams, instead of rising to the challenge their school size and market area should demand of them.

Besides, Valley City will be needed in the west pretty soon. After all, they tried to move the Hi-Liners to the west region of AA this past season, and only Fargo Oak Grove dropping to A allowed the Hi-Liners to be spared that fate. As a life-long resident of the state, I'm still adjusting to Jamestown being considered the start of the state's western region.

But why not do the incredibly absurd and make Valley City the west, seeing as how that 60 miles to the Red River can really seem like a long drive?

The NDHSAA is a dinosaur that has outlived it's usefulness. They can't recognize a change they desperately need to make (reference a three-class basketball system, or a super-two class system, or realignment of basketball, also a longer story), and, with this move in football, they can't resist the opportunity to wreck the best thing they have going.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Mighty-Mouse » Tue Aug 30, 2011 1:28 pm

Well said Heimer
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby powercat » Wed Aug 31, 2011 5:45 pm

Devils Lake was the one who pushed so hard to go down to AA. Also they tried to bring down williston, jamestown etc a few years back so that they would get so buried in AA that they would never have to come out of it. Since Devils Lake, Mary, Shanley, and VC have moved downed to AA they have DOMINATED. How is it any different. The 1000 enrollment schools are gonna dominate no matter who they play (most years). Why not save each school money on travel distances. I played for jamestown. Guess what we got killed all through my high school career by bismarck, century, minot and south. It is just how it is.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Sun Sep 04, 2011 8:09 am

Heimer, you know where I stand on most of this, so I won't get into a point-by-point debate.

The only thing I think you're missing is a little perspective on what is happening with the oil boom in the west.

Williston and Dickinson are headed toward male high school enrollment #s of 500+, which could throw a wrench into your 10 team AAA.

And Valley City has no reason to fear moving west. Expect both Watford City and Stanley to be firmly in AA with their enrollment #s for the next plan. In talking with a Stanley teacher/coach, he put their current enrollment at 260 and rising.

My prediction is that Watford City and Stanley jump to AA and Rugby and Griggs County go down. One team would have to shift east, and I think it would be Carrington.

I'd leave AAA as is, and I think my AA would shake out like this:

West: Belcourt, Bottineau, Bishop Ryan, Stanley, Watford City, Beulah, St. Mary's, Trinity
East: Shanley, Wahpeton, Valley City, Carrington, Central Cass, Kindred, Lisbon, Grafton

That's a salty 2A.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:01 am

Heimer also spoke of the wonders of allowing teams to opt up a division in football.

I'm assuming he'd allow the same in AAA football, since it is allowed in all other divisions. And I'm telling you that Williston and Dickinson would opt up if they were given the opportunity. Those communities are virtually the same size as Mandan, whom we have all lumped in with Fargo/GF/Bismarck/Minot. Dickinson city planners are preparing for a community of 25,000 people by 2015 and the growth is even more rapid in Williston. They'll want to play with the big boys.

I do see Jamestown drifting toward the smaller tier of North Dakota schools and communities, but their numbers are very similar to Williston and Dickinson right now. We'll see where they are at in a couple years.

Heimer, would you deny an 'opt-up' to keep your 10 team league?
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby bbfollower » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:09 am

Williston and Dickinson already are AAA.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:15 am

I know. Heimer's proposal would put them in 2A. 3A would become all the public schools in Fargo, Grand Forks, Bismarck/Mandan and Minot. Williston, Dickinson and Jamestown would move down to 2A.

I'm saying that I bet Williston and Dickinson would want to opt up into 3A, even if they were placed in 2A. I'm a western ND guy and that's my sense. Can't speak for Jamestown. I want to know whether Heimer supports schools being forced down a division with no chance to opt up.

His ten team 2A would also force out some schools that have been 2A as long as the 3A, 2A, 1A, 9-man format has been around.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby bbfollower » Mon Sep 05, 2011 12:35 pm

Okay. Sorry bisonguy06 for the misunderstanding. I didn't realize that is how you meant it. I agree with you though, that I am sure that Dickinson and Williston would want to opt up if there were in AA.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby powercat » Tue Sep 06, 2011 10:44 am

I think the school it self would opt to stay in AAA but the players might think a little different. Everyone wants to win. And when our coach said that there was a proposal that jamestown could move down to AA, he followed that up by saying that is the worst thing that could happen. But deep down you kinda think, nice now we will be the ones winning all the time. A championship is a championship whether you are 9 man or AAA. I for one would rather win a championship in AA than go 3 and 6 in AAA.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby heimer » Tue Sep 06, 2011 1:56 pm

First of all, powercat, the schools you have mentioned have not DOMINATED AA. You must not be up on your history. There are only two teams that can even be remotely accused of dominating AA. Those would be Cavalier, a 9-man school that played AA with an A enrollment when they won their three straight titles, and Dickinson Trinity, who has been opting up every year they have had the chance.

Devils Lake did qualify for three state title games in four years. They lost them all, one to Fargo Oak Grove, who is now A, and two to Shanley, who probably had the best team they will put on the field for a while. At the AA level, having four or five kids that are going on to college football, including a DI lineman, makes a huge difference.

Valley City has been AA since the inception of the 4-class system. They have one state title game appearance, losing to Watford City, who is now A. Both Watford City and Hazen moved to A the year after that season. Hazen made the semifinals, losing to VC. No one said a word but one coach I interviewed, who couldn't believe a team would do such a thing.

Of the four teams you mentioned, all had/have years at AA where they have missed the playoff picture completely. Valley City did not win a playoff game until the mid 2000's. Devils Lake missed the playoffs their second year of AA. St. Marys got beat badly their first year, and are currently 0-2 after losses to Wahpeton, who missed the playoffs last year, and Lisbon, who is the smallest AA school by enrollment, (not counting Trinity, who chooses to opt up. Lisbon would be the second-smallest if Trinity played A, and AA was joined by either Langdon or Larimore, who is the next in line).

I just don't see dominance here. It really speaks to the ongoing prejudice that mid-size schools go through in this state. The schools from Fargo and Bismarck want more teams to play, and they get their way. The little schools want no change to their format, and they get their way. We celebrate when any school gets to move down a class, instead of challenging them to play up, while we force the mid-size schools to play up just for numbers sake.

I think it's time for a lot of people on this thread to face the fact that they have a prejudice against Valley City, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, etc. They are the schools that champion change, and not just for their own benefit. Any time these schools get screwed, we just say, "Well, someone has to." No, someone doesn't have to. Someone does have to lose, but it isn't necessary to expand classes for ease of scheduling. Lets sit down and find a schedule that works, instead of altering classifications to fit a pre-determined schedule.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:28 am

powercat - Jamestown is 2x to 4x the size of all the other 2A schools right now. They could have some success in 2A, but it's not where they belong. There are a few other schools the same size as Jamestown in 3A, and most of the rest are about 1.5x the size of Jamestown. Judging by the scores, the program is in tough shape in Jamestown and it will take quite a rebuilding project, but they belong in 3A by the numbers.

We need to hold the line at 14 teams in AAA and not expand to 16. Heimer is speaking on behalf of Wahpeton, but let's not forget TMCHS (Belcourt). No one can say with a straight face that putting Belcourt in AAA football would be best for their kids or their opponents. That experiment already failed just a couple years ago. I can't believe it would even be up for consideration again. I used to look at 16 as a magic number, but I can't support a 16 team AAA if Belcourt is #16.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:35 am

I know he's from Valley City, but VCHS would not be top 16 in enrollment and would not move to AAA. Wahpeton would. Belcourt would. VCHS would not, unless the numbers change. That's what I meant by my comment.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:50 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:I know he's from Valley City, but VCHS would not be top 16 in enrollment and would not move to AAA. Wahpeton would. Belcourt would. VCHS would not, unless the numbers change. That's what I meant by my comment.


okay thanks for the clarification...I was confused on what you meant
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby heimer » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:05 pm

Thanks for another dose of anti-Valley City prejudice, RunforFun. I clearly stated in the opener of this thread that Valley City would not be affected by this change. You just can't resist a chance to slam Valley City, can you?

I'm not speaking on behalf of Wahpeton, Belcourt, Valley City, or anyone. I'm speaking on behalf of football, period. No one else in the state seems to be able to speak on behalf of a sport. They always have mixed motives involved, promoting their team, or their area of the state, or protecting their memories of 30 years ago. Not me. I have none of those things to protect.

I'm speaking for football. Rise up and do the same, RunforFun. I challenge you.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:21 pm

heimer wrote:Thanks for another dose of anti-Valley City prejudice, RunforFun. I clearly stated in the opener of this thread that Valley City would not be affected by this change. You just can't resist a chance to slam Valley City, can you?

I'm not speaking on behalf of Wahpeton, Belcourt, Valley City, or anyone. I'm speaking on behalf of football, period. No one else in the state seems to be able to speak on behalf of a sport. They always have mixed motives involved, promoting their team, or their area of the state, or protecting their memories of 30 years ago. Not me. I have none of those things to protect.

I'm speaking for football. Rise up and do the same, RunforFun. I challenge you.


woah woah woah now...who said I was anti-Valley City? I was confused on a statement made earlier by Bisonguy06. Don't jump down my throat!!
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby bighouse » Wed Sep 07, 2011 1:33 pm

bigger enrollment doesn't always mean better teams you still have to have the tallent come and play. you could have a smaller enrolllment and have a better team than a big school. I know with bigger enrollment you have a better chance for tallent, but I have seen A schools beat AA schools. Also dickinson and williston are growing, but being from dickinson there team hasen't got any bigger they have only 2 new players in fact they had players not go out.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:24 pm

heimer wrote:Thanks for another dose of anti-Valley City prejudice, RunforFun. I clearly stated in the opener of this thread that Valley City would not be affected by this change. You just can't resist a chance to slam Valley City, can you?

I'm not speaking on behalf of Wahpeton, Belcourt, Valley City, or anyone. I'm speaking on behalf of football, period. No one else in the state seems to be able to speak on behalf of a sport. They always have mixed motives involved, promoting their team, or their area of the state, or protecting their memories of 30 years ago. Not me. I have none of those things to protect.

I'm speaking for football. Rise up and do the same, RunforFun. I challenge you.


Heimer, for the sake of honesty here I think I better point out that the margin for VCHS missing the AAA cutoff is pretty slim, and Valley City would have an interest in resisting the 16 team AAA to protect itself. A small enrollment spike could push them to #16. I'm not saying that this is your motive, just that I'd except VCHS to fight against this plan.

I don't think it's wise to say that you are the only one speaking on behalf of what's best for North Dakota, either.

When you look at the enrollment #s, the two best places to draw the dividing line between AAA and AA (by far) are above Devils Lake and below Devils Lake. We could argue all day long about what to do with Devils Lake, but the new West Fargo High School solves that problem for us and pushes them to 2A.

There's no natural cutoff for a 10 team AAA. There is a natural cutoff for a 14 team AAA. There isn't one at 16 teams. We've gone 'round and 'round on the details several times, but that's my case for a 14 team AAA being in the best interest of North Dakota football. If the NDHSAA gets serious about expanding to 16 teams, I'll be right there with you to fight it.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:37 pm

And by "natural cutoff," here's what I'm saying:

The gap between the 10th and 11th largest schools (Davies and Williston) is only 12 boys.

The gap between the 14th and 15th largest schools (Devils Lake and Wahpeton) is 93 boys.

The gap between the 16th and 17th largest schools (TMCHS and Valley City) is only 11 boys.

http://www.ndhsaa.org/files/11_12_FB_Division.pdf
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby heimer » Wed Sep 07, 2011 7:33 pm

Bisonguy, you conveniently ignore the free and reduced meals part of this thread that I originated the thread in the first place.

The practice should be stopped. Devils Lake continually gets screwed by reverse racism, which applies a 60% enrollment standard to schools with heavy users of "free and reduced meals". The standard was brought about by the NDHSAA after they were challenged for their policy of automatically classing the native schools down a class prior to 2007 (not speculation, verified by a person inside the NDHSAA).

The two of you, Bisonguy and RunforFun, both run to protect every private school when it is suggested that they should be forced to multiply their enrollment due to their "selective enrollment process" (recruiting, or more politically correct, lack of a defined school district). Yet, you apparently support a rule that allows other schools to artificially deflate their enrollment for a select sport based on what and how the students eat.

So, which way do you want it? When Valley City petitioned to move down, you screamed that 325 is 325, and until you're 324, you're A. Fine. I accept that, I don't agree that 325 is the right standard, but it is the rule. Football says the top 14 are AAA. Yet, thats not what happens. Right now the top 13 and #15 is AAA, while #14 is AA. That seems to be in direct conflict with your "your enrollment is your enrollment" standard you stuck to two winters ago, while you cheered the District 5 schools on in their effort to "reclaim your Class B glory".

Bisonguy, your phanton "enrollment spike" theory is a joke, and you know it. Until 2018, when this year's kindergarden class becomes seventh graders, there will be no upward tick in enrollment, much less a spike. I know the class sizes. With West Fargo 2 coming online before then, even 16 schools will not include Valley City. You made a deliberate attempt to muddy my motives on this thread. Argue facts in evidence, not your half-baked "theories".

RunforFun, your bias is clearly showing. Are you now of the persuasion that any change argued for is a product of Valley City? Sounds like it, because reading my original post all the way through, or looking the numbers at the links I provided, would have illustrated that Valley City is not part of this debate. Yet, somehow, you drag the Hi-Liners through the mud again. Good strategy. Track standards go up, blame Valley City. 9-man overtime rules change, blame Valley City. Obamacare is fully funded, blame Valley City. Maybe you can hook the Fighting Sioux fiasco on them too.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Indy5 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 8:32 pm

Heimer, I agree with most of what you are saying. I definitely think AAA should remain at 14 teams and when West Fargo has a new school, everything will be just fine. I don't think Belcourt should be forced to play AAA. It doesn't make sense. They're a celler dweller at AA already. And other than Parshall in 9 man, when is the last time a reservation school has been competetive at football. I'm not trying to bash the reservation schools, I'm just stating a fact and the reason they play down a class. But then again, I also think Valley City should have been allowed to stay class B. Why not let them drop and be competitive versus getting kicked every game in class A. They didn't dominate. They lost in the first round of regionals.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:48 pm

heimer wrote:Bisonguy, you conveniently ignore the free and reduced meals part of this thread that I originated the thread in the first place.

The practice should be stopped. Devils Lake continually gets screwed by reverse racism, which applies a 60% enrollment standard to schools with heavy users of "free and reduced meals". The standard was brought about by the NDHSAA after they were challenged for their policy of automatically classing the native schools down a class prior to 2007 (not speculation, verified by a person inside the NDHSAA).

The two of you, Bisonguy and RunforFun, both run to protect every private school when it is suggested that they should be forced to multiply their enrollment due to their "selective enrollment process" (recruiting, or more politically correct, lack of a defined school district). Yet, you apparently support a rule that allows other schools to artificially deflate their enrollment for a select sport based on what and how the students eat.

So, which way do you want it? When Valley City petitioned to move down, you screamed that 325 is 325, and until you're 324, you're A. Fine. I accept that, I don't agree that 325 is the right standard, but it is the rule. Football says the top 14 are AAA. Yet, thats not what happens. Right now the top 13 and #15 is AAA, while #14 is AA. That seems to be in direct conflict with your "your enrollment is your enrollment" standard you stuck to two winters ago, while you cheered the District 5 schools on in their effort to "reclaim your Class B glory".

Bisonguy, your phanton "enrollment spike" theory is a joke, and you know it. Until 2018, when this year's kindergarden class becomes seventh graders, there will be no upward tick in enrollment, much less a spike. I know the class sizes. With West Fargo 2 coming online before then, even 16 schools will not include Valley City. You made a deliberate attempt to muddy my motives on this thread. Argue facts in evidence, not your half-baked "theories".

RunforFun, your bias is clearly showing. Are you now of the persuasion that any change argued for is a product of Valley City? Sounds like it, because reading my original post all the way through, or looking the numbers at the links I provided, would have illustrated that Valley City is not part of this debate. Yet, somehow, you drag the Hi-Liners through the mud again. Good strategy. Track standards go up, blame Valley City. 9-man overtime rules change, blame Valley City. Obamacare is fully funded, blame Valley City. Maybe you can hook the Fighting Sioux fiasco on them too.


Speaking of muddying the waters, I know you can't name a single high school student that has been denied admission at a private school in North Dakota, and yet you throw the"selective enrollment" or "recruiting" mud into the debate at every opportunity. Don't ridicule and then use the same debate tactic within a single post.

Now, let me try to make peace.

1) I don't have a clue what Valley City's upcoming classes look like, and I didn't claim that protecting Valley City was your only motive. In fact, I said the opposite. I gave you the benefit of the doubt. Nevertheless, a 16 team AAA would put VCHS on the fringe of AAA. That is a simple fact.

2) I have stated in the past that a weighted factor for private schools may not survive a legal challenge. I wonder if the "free and reduced meals" factor would survive a legal challenge. What do you think? I think if you can prove that the NDHSAA purposely searched for a # or percentage that would include all the reservation schools and exclude all the non-reservation schools, you have a case.

You're right, you brought up the "free and reduced meals" factor in your original post, among a long laundry list of complaints against the NDHSAA. I overlooked it. Guilty as charged. I focused on 10 vs. 14 vs. 16 teams in AAA and not the free and reduced meals concept.

Now that you put that issue on the table, where do I stand? Well, I don't like blowouts and I don't like the idea of Belcourt in AAA football... but I don't like weighted factors, either. When push comes to shove, I say kids are kids and let's count 'em all the same. You know that's where I stand in basketball, so that's where I stand in football, too. I think it's very fair to question that rule.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby spoilersports » Thu Sep 08, 2011 9:09 am

Relax, gentlemen. Let's keep our heads cool.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby heimer » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:34 am

Bisonguy is right on my idea of what recruiting is, but, and not to muddy the waters further, but lets explore that. Isn't opening a school where anyone is free to come, regardless of residential location, recruiting? That's not something that the publics can do. Taxpayers don't like to educate kids for free.

So, even if there is no active coach-face-to-face-with-player recruiting going on, there is an underlying concept of recruiting by opening your doors to anyone nationwide. Slice, dice, and spin it all you want, that's recruiting.

But, that's another thread.

On this issue, your idea that VC is a fringe team in a 16-team AAA division without free-and reduced meals, as I've argued for, is just not valid. 14 would take us through Belcourt. 16 would include West Fargo 2 and Devils Lake. There is still Wahpeton before Valley City. And, since 16 is specifically what the AAA coaches are asking for, I reject any fringe factor. The class will get no bigger than 16, and Valley City will not surpass Wahpeton or Devils Lake in enrollment.

I reject any implication that this is motivated, in any way, by Valley City's situation. They have nothing to worry about. I am a Valley City person arguing for less teams, not more in the top division, not for Valley City, but for Wahpeton, Devils Lake, Belcourt, and so on.

The facts are simple:

1. AAA wanted 12 and got it when the NDHSAA stopped classing down native schools.
2. NDHSAA changed their formula to directly impact native schools.
3. AAA never tried to make a 13-team division work when Davies came in. Instead of playing with a 12-team division, they chose 14. They had made 12 work, they never tried to make 13 work, so they took the easy way out.
4. West Fargo 2 now gives them a ploy to angle for 16.
5. Both 3 and 4 in this list come with the idea that Belcourt will never be in the mix again.

A very reasonable, common sense conclusion is that AAA stalled for time to get Belcourt out of the mix, then began requesting the expansion of the class. They were in bed with the NDHSAA all along to get this done, further illustrating the clandestine nature of the NDHSAA, with it's back-door deals to keep things running the way they want it.

I'll give you this, Bisonguy, as much as I disagree with their action to reinstate the 325 cutoff for basketball, at least it was done in the open. I'll give the schools that pursued that action credit for that. This football deal stinks to high Heaven. Before this, they tried to move Valley City to the West Region so Griggs-Barnes County could be east. Griggs-Barnes is clearly more geographically west than Valley City, but the good-ole-boy system involving supers who are friends with other supers on the football committee made a backdoor arrangement that no one knew about.

I called one of the supers on the football committee and asked what his rationale was for moving VC west and Griggs Barnes east. His direct quote to me was, "There wasn't any." That's a direct quote, not supposition on my part. All one as to do is look at a map and see that their 17-town, 2100 square mile coop is further west than Valley City. They are closer to Minot Ryan, Rugby, Bottineau, Beulah, Carrington, and Belcourt than VC. VC is only closer to St. Marys and Dickinson Trinity. Thank God Oak Grove went down to avoid that madness.

Then, add in the state title games this year. Hardly anyone knew that, despite the availability of the Alerus Center, the football committee chose to cram all four games in a day at the Fargodome because "it was their turn". Sorry, but if you have a Bison game that weekend, forfeit your turn, or do a Thursday-Friday. Of course, TV rejected the Thursday-Friday, so we get stuck with the one-day format, so Ed Lockwood can look good for jobs in Minnesota somewhere, since that's how they do it.

Football is being governed as far away from the light of day as possible. It's simple, and it stinks.
God is bigger than football.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby Baller » Thu Sep 08, 2011 10:42 am

First of all. North Dakota is an open enrollment state therefore no matter where you live, you can go to any school that you want private or public but once you declare your varsity eligibility (freshman year) you stay there unless you move (also public or private) so nice try on that arguement.
Second, its not the AAA coaches not wanting to play Turtle Mountain, it is Turtle Mountain not being able to compete and wanting to be AA. - not different than VC pushing to move other sports to 325.
Third, Ed Lockwood is close to retirement and would probably rather be out hunting and fishing then trying to look good for Minnesota jobs.
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Re: Wreck it for us, please.

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 08, 2011 11:21 am

Name one Native American school since going to the 4 class system that has competed at the level their actual enrollment dictates. Besides Parshall having one good year and St John having a pretty decent run lately in 9man, the rest of the teams have struggled to win a single game each year playing down a division. You said yourself in your initial post that you thought the AAA schools were taking the easy way out by wanting to play cupcakes with lower enrollments instead of challenging themselves to play the top enrollment schools each week. But now you're saying that Belcourt should play AAA?? I have no problem with the reduced enrollment number for schools that have a certain percentage of poverty for reduced/free meals. One, because it is not limited to a certain set of schools even though only NA schools qualify at the moment. If other schools show the same percentage, they will get the same treatment on their enrollment number. And two, the reduced enrollment number hasn't given any team an advantage in their division. Until it does, there is no need for a change. The high poverty rates in these schools leads to less participation in not only during the season, but for offseason training such as camps, accel, weights, etc.
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