Wreck it for us, please.

[heimer]

The system was invented specifically for Native American schools. They found a loophole that allows them to sell it as a standard that applies to all schools, but in reality, they (NDHSAA) knew all along that only native schools would apply. The facts are that this practice is reverse racism.

I'm not promoting that anyone play anywhere but in the class that they belong in. You, however, talk out of both sides of your mouth, rallying to keep "B" free of any infestation, while allowing Devils Lake to get screwed by reverse racism. I don't want Belcourt to get smashed, but I'd rather a school with a legitimate enrollment get smashed than one that is forced because of reverse racism.

Its more fair to let Belcourt get beat than Devils Lake, because Belcourt has a true AAA enrollment.

And this crying poor crap won't fly. Native schools do just fine with facilities and programs for kids, and way more of it is free to them than it is to other schools. Further, there are hardship grants for kids to go to camps. Poverty doesn't keep kids from participating. I seem to remember a bunch of Valley City bashers saying the school and the coaches had to change the way they do things to compete, get more kids out, get them in the weight room, hire better coaches. Ring a bell? It should, because you said it. And if you're right, then you're right, even when it comes to free-and-reduced meals.

Face it, you want a double standard for football. It's that simple. It doesn't matter how long it's been since someone was competitive. The state has established that that argument won't fly (enrollment to 400 and back again). It was rejected by the membership. If that argument was rejected, it should be rejected here as well.

Again, it's football being regulated outside of the light of day.

And on the recruiting thing, I've never seen a TV ad for a public school, and I've never seen a taxpayer-funded board have to approve a transfer request from another district at a private school. Private schools have school boards, but open enrollment does not clear the hurdles that separate public and private. Besides, if we have open enrollment, then why have school districts? The fact that some have districts, and others dont, show the advantage of those that do not.

[ndlionsfan]

The system was invented specifically for Native American schools. They found a loophole that allows them to sell it as a standard that applies to all schools, but in reality, they (NDHSAA) knew all along that only native schools would apply. The facts are that this practice is reverse racism. .

It may have initially started as a way to even the field a bit for Native American schools, but there are other schools that it applies to as well. There are many small schools that are involved in co-ops where their enrollment only counts 60%. And those smalled enrollments in some of the schools in the co-ops do keep some teams from being bumped up a division. Plus, the main reason that this came about was because the other schools in AAA did not want Belcourt in their division even though their enrollment put them there.

I'm not promoting that anyone play anywhere but in the class that they belong in. You, however, talk out of both sides of your mouth, rallying to keep "B" free of any infestation, while allowing Devils Lake to get screwed by reverse racism. I don't want Belcourt to get smashed, but I'd rather a school with a legitimate enrollment get smashed than one that is forced because of reverse racism. Its more fair to let Belcourt get beat than Devils Lake, because Belcourt has a true AAA enrollment..

I never had rallied to keep the B the way it is. I have always been open to many new ideas and have even drawn up a few different plans for everyone to discuss the pros and cons. I do feel there needs to be some change in our bball structure in this state, but I don't feel fball needs a change. Each division is very competitive and I think its split up nicely. A lot of people cried and whined when the state went to the 4 divisions back in 97, but I don't hear a lot of whining about it now besides you. Even you have stated that AAA and AA are great, but now you want to move Belcourt up to AAA, Newtown and Standing Rock up to AA, and FW, Dunseith, and Parshall up to A. the only NA school that would remain in the current division would be St John, which is the only one that has been successful lately. Then you would be whining that AA west teams have too easy of a road to the playoffs and the teams in the east all have to battle it out.

And this crying poor crap won't fly. Native schools do just fine with facilities and programs for kids, and way more of it is free to them than it is to other schools. Further, there are hardship grants for kids to go to camps. Poverty doesn't keep kids from participating. I seem to remember a bunch of Valley City bashers saying the school and the coaches had to change the way they do things to compete, get more kids out, get them in the weight room, hire better coaches. Ring a bell? It should, because you said it. And if you're right, then you're right, even when it comes to free-and-reduced meals...

Again you're misquoting me here. I never said anything about VC having to buck up and improve their program and quit whining. Poverty is a huge hinderance to participation and you just have no clue. It's not even worth my time to respond to this.

Face it, you want a double standard for football. It's that simple. It doesn't matter how long it's been since someone was competitive. The state has established that that argument won't fly (enrollment to 400 and back again). It was rejected by the membership. If that argument was rejected, it should be rejected here as well. Again, it's football being regulated outside of the light of day..

If you have such a problem with the way football is regulated, stroll down the road to the NDHSAA and speak your mind at one of your meetings then. It does little good to sit here and argue with everyone that does not share the same opinion as you on these topics. Put your money where you mouth is and go to work at the source if your ideas are so great and your complaints are so valid.

I don't know how many of these long arguments you have battled with everyone about the last few years, but it all goes down the same road. You start out with some decent ideas and valid points, but then you lose all your credibility when you start debating with everyone because you just talk in circles and try to call everyone out instead of just focusing on the orginal topic.

[Indy5]

Heimer, I'm gonna say something here. You start many threads and have good ideas that lead to good disscussion. It's all great for a little while. Then, people start to disagree with you and you're so bitter about the Valley City situation, hard headed, and argumentative that it eventually ruins what was once a good topic.

[Bisonguy06]

Heimer is pretty sharp and very persuasive, one issue at a time. But instead, his strategy is to fling 20 years of NDHSAA complaints against the wall, claim it's all one big conspiracy, claim to be the only one looking out for what's best for North Dakota, and see if it all sticks.

I'm not sure where to go with this thread, so I'll just pick one of the many topics. Is anyone else bothered by the Dakota Bowl being held on one day (a Friday) in the Fargodome? It's not ideal, but I do think it's good in a way to bring all ND football fans to the same venue on one day. I know it's been done before, but on a Saturday. Perhaps a one or two day event at the Alerus Center in Grand Forks is a better choice. The case for Fargo is that the Fargodome is a slightly better venue and the city of Fargo is closer in proximity for more of the state's residents.

I think Heimer takes issue with the decision and the process. Maybe there were better alternatives, but I'm not all that bothered by this decision for one year, and I just don't know much about the process. I see this as a questionable decision, but not a disastrous one and not as evidence of a larger conspiracy.

[heimer]

Bisonguy, you know as well as I do it will not be a one-year fix. All sports activities in Fargo are changing for Fargo's benefit not the teams or the states. If it were a one-year fix, I'd be okay with that. But I've had two candid conversations with members of the tournament committee that claim this is the way its going to be for the future.

The event deserves two days, and if TV can't make it work, screw them. Make it work for the kids playing. No one should have to play a state title game at 9 a.m. If they did that to the state B basketball tournament, people would be up in arms, and that would be just the first game of the day. This is a state title game were talking about.

Fargo already saw fit to push the first round EDC basketball games to home sites in the name of revenue. Whatever happened to the post-season being a fresh start at a neutral site, where seeds are the only advantage? The regular seasons are supposed to be thrown out. If were going to do it for the first round, then lets do it for the entire tournament, and at both levels, A and B.

You can say it's 20 years of issues. It is, but it isnt. It's one, that being double-standards, carried out over 20 years away from the light of day. All of you screamed about this when the NDHSAA moved the enrollment cutoff to 400. You claimed it was behind closed doors, and it stunk. If that is the case, all of these, free-and-reduced meals, state title day, class expansion, all of it fits directly into the same pattern, but you don't care. Why? Because it's not Class "B" basketball.

[Baller]

Fargo already saw fit to push the first round EDC basketball games to home sites in the name of revenue. Whatever happened to the post-season being a fresh start at a neutral site, where seeds are the only advantage? The regular seasons are supposed to be thrown out. If were going to do it for the first round, then lets do it for the entire tournament, and at both levels, A and B.

Again, Not Fargo, but the ENTIRE EDC coaches voted for this making the season mean a little more. Volleyball will also be going to it this year.

[Bisonguy06]

Bisonguy, you know as well as I do it will not be a one-year fix. All sports activities in Fargo are changing for Fargo's benefit not the teams or the states. If it were a one-year fix, I'd be okay with that. But I've had two candid conversations with members of the tournament committee that claim this is the way its going to be for the future.

The event deserves two days, and if TV can't make it work, screw them. Make it work for the kids playing. No one should have to play a state title game at 9 a.m. If they did that to the state B basketball tournament, people would be up in arms, and that would be just the first game of the day. This is a state title game were talking about.

Fargo already saw fit to push the first round EDC basketball games to home sites in the name of revenue. Whatever happened to the post-season being a fresh start at a neutral site, where seeds are the only advantage? The regular seasons are supposed to be thrown out. If were going to do it for the first round, then lets do it for the entire tournament, and at both levels, A and B.

You can say it's 20 years of issues. It is, but it isnt. It's one, that being double-standards, carried out over 20 years away from the light of day. All of you screamed about this when the NDHSAA moved the enrollment cutoff to 400. You claimed it was behind closed doors, and it stunk. If that is the case, all of these, free-and-reduced meals, state title day, class expansion, all of it fits directly into the same pattern, but you don't care. Why? Because it's not Class "B" basketball.

See Heimer, I'm usually with you, but one issue at a time. I gave you one topic and you came back with several. OK, here goes.

Let's get rid of double standards. Jimmy should count as one high school boy whether his family moves to Four Winds, Finley-Sharon or Fargo Shanley. Totally agree.

I also agree that postseason basketball tournaments should be played at neutral sites, and at the same site, whenever possible. I'm dead set against the EDC moving first round games to home gymnasiums. Totally agree.

I'm just not all that fired up about the Dakota Bowl venue deal, and I see this as a one year issue. I doubt they are looking at 4 Friday games as the best long-term option. I don't like a full day of games on a Friday, but I could live with it on a Saturday. Seems like they could play at 10, 1, 4:30 & 7:30 - a slight improvement. Is it better to spread over 2 days? Sure, I'll give you that. But not everyone can play at prime time. This isn't a travesty.

[Fullback]

Two things I'll never forget from a championship season are winning the championship game and beating a school ten times our size during the regular season. Dedication of the athletes and community support are two huge variables to this equation. I think all this jumping up a level and jumping down a level starts to take something away from the meaning of being a champion. Some schools dominate but it makes it all that much more sweet when the small school comes and snatches it away.

[heimer]

Good point, fullback, but it's worth mentioning that the jumping doesn't have to happen. It's clear that the culture in our small schools right is the real problem, not the system.

After the 2008 season, two of the semifinalists in AA football moved down to A, including the state champion. While the numbers in the classification game allowed them to do so, we have shining examples of teams opting up with success:

Dickinson Trinity and Cavalier never had AA enrollments. They won several of the early AA titles after the implementation of the four-class system. Harvey wins A titles with a 9-man enrollment. I believe Stanley and perhaps Velva have played deep into the A playoffs with a nine-man enrollment.

This speaks clearly to the double-standard of high school athletics that I have referenced in this thread time and time again. So many people sit around and b---- and complain about Valley City wanting to play down, even in football, saying the "dominate" (haven't one a single title, and they've one, if memory serves, 6 total playoff games since 1998), as was said in this thread. But fans of those same schools smile and pat themselves on the back when they get to slip down a class, and cry poverty when they have to move back up.

Our small schools do not relish upsetting the big schools, like you describe. This is just a myth, and one that small schools cling to to resist change. In reality, they strive for playing smaller and smaller schools, not bigger and bigger ones. If there truly was a culture of challenge in high school athletics, we would see a vastly different situation in athletics than we see now.

Don't blame the big schools. Blame the big-small schools. They are the ones that take the easy way out in the name of wins and losses.

[ndlionsfan]

Don't blame the big schools. Blame the big-small schools. They are the ones that take the easy way out in the name of wins and losses.

But yet, to start this topic out you were saying the AAA schools just want to take the easy way out by having DL, Turtle Mtn, and Whap on their schedules by mandating a 16 team division.

[heimer]

Absolutely I do. If AAA football can expand it's class, then why not A basketball. Instead of 325, lets let the Fargo Souths and Bismarck Highs of the world push their weight around and say 200 is A, and absorb all the teams that come in over that standard. Or how about 150.

All of you would viciously protest that action, saying the bigs just want to beat up on the littles to make scheduling easier.

Yet, you could care less if they do it in football.

Face it, as long as Valley City, Devils Lake, and Wahpeton get screwed, you think its great. That is bias, a doublestandard, and just plain wrong.

[ndlionsfan]

You make no sense whatsoever.

And for what its worth, I am all in favor of expanding class A in bball and vball. Pretty soon they will be down to about 14 teams there, too. I'm all for an enrollment cutoff of around 225.

[heimer]

Ah, 225. Good choice, just low enough to keep the same 19 teams up there, and maybe add one or two, so your precious Class B can be preserved.

You make plenty of sense, and your mixed motives show through.

[Run4Fun2009]

Ah, 225. Good choice, just low enough to keep the same 19 teams up there, and maybe add one or two, so your precious Class B can be preserved.

You make plenty of sense, and your mixed motives show through.

I'm asking this in all seriousness: In your opinion...what number should be the cutoff? My apologies if you've stated it before...I haven't seen a number from you? Cutoff for FB enrollment?? and cutoff for BB/VB enrollment??

[heimer]

I'll try to nutshell this, since we've been through all of this before.

Football

AAA (12, I've advocated 10, but with West Fargo 2 coming online, 10 likely unworkable)
Minot, Bismarck High, Bismarck Century, Mandan, Williston, Grand Forks Red River, West Fargo 1, West Fargo 2, Fargo North, Fargo South, Grand Forks Central, Fargo Davies. Play all but two every year, based on rotation.

Eight team playoff, top eight qualify, 1-8 seeds as in basketball.

AA (12)
Jamestown, Dickinson, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Belcourt, Valley City, Fargo Shanley, Bismarck St. Marys, Grafton-St. Thomas, Central Cass, Kindred, Beulah. Same format as above.

A (24)
Griggs Barnes, Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley, Northern Cass, May-Port-C-G, Hatton-Northwood,
Carrington, Larimore, Langdon, Bottineau, Rugby, Westhope,
Minot Ryan, Stanley-Powers Lake, Tioga-Ray, Des Lacs, Garrison, Berthold,
Watford City, Hazen, Washburn, New Salem, Killdeer, New Town,

Five games in region, scheduling alliances for non-league. Eight-team playoff format, two from each region.

9-man is the rest. 54 total teams.

Opt-ups allowed, no opt-downs in response, declare opt-ups prior to first game of regular season of season before opt. (Example, if team wishes to opt up in 2013, they must inform HSAA of opt up by first game of August, 2012, for scheduling purposes.

Basketball, volleyball--

Throw out enrollment cutoff. Top 32 teams are Class A, split into two divisions, with top 16 enrollments in top division, and the next 16 in bottom division. Each division sends four teams to state tournament.

[Run4Fun2009]

I'll try to nutshell this, since we've been through all of this before.

Football

AAA (12, I've advocated 10, but with West Fargo 2 coming online, 10 likely unworkable)
Minot, Bismarck High, Bismarck Century, Mandan, Williston, Grand Forks Red River, West Fargo 1, West Fargo 2, Fargo North, Fargo South, Grand Forks Central, Fargo Davies. Play all but two every year, based on rotation.

Eight team playoff, top eight qualify, 1-8 seeds as in basketball.

AA (12)
Jamestown, Dickinson, Devils Lake, Wahpeton, Belcourt, Valley City, Fargo Shanley, Bismarck St. Marys, Grafton-St. Thomas, Central Cass, Kindred, Beulah. Same format as above.

A (24)
Griggs Barnes, Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley, Northern Cass, May-Port-C-G, Hatton-Northwood,
Carrington, Larimore, Langdon, Bottineau, Rugby, Westhope,
Minot Ryan, Stanley-Powers Lake, Tioga-Ray, Des Lacs, Garrison, Berthold,
Watford City, Hazen, Washburn, New Salem, Killdeer, New Town,

Five games in region, scheduling alliances for non-league. Eight-team playoff format, two from each region.

9-man is the rest. 54 total teams.

Opt-ups allowed, no opt-downs in response, declare opt-ups prior to first game of regular season of season before opt. (Example, if team wishes to opt up in 2013, they must inform HSAA of opt up by first game of August, 2012, for scheduling purposes.

Basketball, volleyball--

Throw out enrollment cutoff. Top 32 teams are Class A, split into two divisions, with top 16 enrollments in top division, and the next 16 in bottom division. Each division sends four teams to state tournament.

Ok thank you for clarifying your opinion and the nice breakdown.

[Indy5]

Basketball, volleyball--

Throw out enrollment cutoff. Top 32 teams are Class A, split into two divisions, with top 16 enrollments in top division, and the next 16 in bottom division. Each division sends four teams to state tournament.

I really wouldn't mind this at all. The bottom 16 teams would rarely pick up wins at state, but that's ok. Not everyone has to win state. They just need to be able to compete, which they would within their division. Going to state would still be special to them and could be viewed as a successful season. Maybe they pick up an upset at state. Maybe they don't and they're playing for the consolation championship.

[Bisonguy06]

[quote="heimer"]I'll try to nutshell this, since we've been through all of this before.

Football

AAA (12, I've advocated 10, but with West Fargo 2 coming online, 10 likely unworkable)
Minot, Bismarck High, Bismarck Century, Mandan, Williston, Grand Forks Red River, West Fargo 1, West Fargo 2, Fargo North, Fargo South, Grand Forks Central, Fargo Davies. ]Play all but two every year, based on rotation.

This could work, but there is a fairness issue here with unbalanced schedules affecting teams and their chances of making the playoffs.

Team 'A' might make the playoffs in a year when they don't have to play two powerhouse teams (Bismarck High and Fargo South, for argument's sake), while Team B might miss the playoffs because they have to play both BHS and Fargo South but they don't get to play two cellar-dwellers (Grand Forks Central and West Fargo 2, for example). When the season ends and we sort out records and playoff teams, we're not comparing apples to apples.

I see why you've done this, because there is no way to split these 12 teams into an east/west or north/south that makes sense. But this is a problem nonetheless.

[ndlionsfan]

Ah, 225. Good choice, just low enough to keep the same 19 teams up there, and maybe add one or two, so your precious Class B can be preserved.

You make plenty of sense, and your mixed motives show through.

I was just throwing out a number. I'm not current on HS enrollments, but at 225 I'm thinkin Grafton, CC, Beulah, Carrington, Watford, and Lisbon must all be over or pretty close to that number. Plus with the growth in certain areas of the state I would think Kindred, Stanly, N Cass and a few others might get to that mark in a few years, too.

I do like your idea of setting a certain number in Class A for bball/vball and throwing out the enrollment line. It's worked alright for fball, why can't it work for the others?

[heimer]

I really wouldn't mind this at all. The bottom 16 teams would rarely pick up wins at state, but that's ok. Not everyone has to win state. They just need to be able to compete, which they would within their division. Going to state would still be special to them and could be viewed as a successful season. Maybe they pick up an upset at state. Maybe they don't and they're playing for the consolation championship.

Here's what I really like about this for basketball:

Everyone has become at least somewhat versed on the competitive issues of the bigs vs. the mids and the mids vs the littles. But basketball, in general, has one huge inequity that never gets addressed.

Class "A" has 19 teams, eight of which go to state. You need only win 2 games in your region to go, and for some of the bigs, state tournaments are kind of expected, not looked at as a possibility. Whereas we all know the way "B" teams treasure their rare opportunites (for most anyway) of advancing.

With this plan, the top 16-team division would be split eight west and eight east. So would the bottom division. You'd basically have four regions, two west regions and two east regions. Each would advance two teams to state.

For the first time, A and B would have at least one thing in common: Everyone at the state tournament would have had to have at least advanced to their regional title game. Now, of course, the B's would still have to win theirs, but in both classes, if you lose in the first round or semi-finals, it's over. There's urgency. There's no more looking at the field and knowing that the real game is tomorrow, or even Saturday, it's right now.

[heimer]

This could work, but there is a fairness issue here with unbalanced schedules affecting teams and their chances of making the playoffs.

Team 'A' might make the playoffs in a year when they don't have to play two powerhouse teams (Bismarck High and Fargo South, for argument's sake), while Team B might miss the playoffs because they have to play both BHS and Fargo South but they don't get to play two cellar-dwellers (Grand Forks Central and West Fargo 2, for example). When the season ends and we sort out records and playoff teams, we're not comparing apples to apples.

I see why you've done this, because there is no way to split these 12 teams into an east/west or north/south that makes sense. But this is a problem nonetheless.

There are problems with every formula, and this one is the smallest problem possible. If you have 12 teams in a class, and you take eight to the playoffs, and you're mad because you finished ninth and you don't get the reward of going on the road and playing someone that likely already beat you fairly convincingly, you don't have enough things to complain about. I could see your point if we shortened the field to six, but eight solves that problem before it starts.

[Bisonguy06]

Heimer, yes and no...

What if the unbalanced schedule affects seeds #4 & 5, for example, and #4 gets to host #5 in a first round playoff game by posting a stronger record against a weaker schedule?

Tiebreakers would become more complicated in another way... what if your top 2 teams sport identical records but never played each other? Who is #1? What if the tie is for the 8 seed? What's the tiebreaker? And if it comes down to scores vs. common opponents, are you giving teams an incentive to run up the score to protect their tiebreaker advantage?

Let me just pause and say that overall Heimer, I think your plan is not perfect but acceptable, and I could live with it as long as we have the "opt up" possibility in place at all levels.

I'm not raising these issues just to throw more roadblocks in front of your plan... ND legion baseball, for example, uses one statewide division and an unbalanced schedule. This can be done, and no system is perfect. To me, unbalanced schedules and tiebreakers are the key questions, and I just think we need answers so that we're clear on what is being proposed.

[heimer]

Okay Bisonguy, you are nit-picking, but whatever. Whether you're "throwing up road blocks" or not, I still firmly believe that you're a voice for the status quo, and would resist any change, even if I suggested that Jesus Christ himself returned to Earth to officiate every playoff game.

But, in accordance with your questions, I will propose answers:

(If this system were in place for 2011)

A) AAA will include the top 12 enrollments
B) Opt-ups will be allowed, no reciprocal opt-downs
C) Teams choosing to opt-up make the choice on a three (3) year commitment.
D) Teams choosing to opt-up will declare their intention to do so by the opening date of the season previous to their opt-up during the first year of the plan.
E) Teams choosing not to opt up for the first year of the plan will not be allowed to opt-up until the three-year cycle of the plan is over, and the next cycle begins. They will then be required to notify the HSAA of their intention to opt up on or before the day of the first game of the 2013 season, for inclusion in the 2014-16 plan.
F) AAA will include a 9-game schedule. Schedule will be based on a rotational basis, with two (2) teams not among the rotation.
G) Should additional teams be added to AAA due to opt-ups, the rotational team number will be increased by one for each team that is added.
H) Regular season games must be completed by October 18th, 2011
I) Following the completion of the regular season games on October 18th, 2011, a meeting of coaches will be held to determine the playoff field, based on the following criteria:
1) The top eight records will qualify for the playoffs
2) Should a tie for eighth-place occur, the first tie-breaker will be record versus common opponents only
3) Should a tie for eighth-place still exist, point-differential among common opponents will be used, with a +/-17 factor used in all games (the same as the current tie-breaker rule)
4) Should a tie for eighth-place still exist, the teams will meet Saturday, October 22nd, 2011 for a play-in game, with the winner advancing to meet the #1 seed, with a coin flip determining home-field advantage
J) Should a multiple-team tie exist for any final playoff position (a three-way tie or more), those ties will be broken based on the following criteria:
1) Records among common opponents will be the first tie-breaker. Should this criteria break all ties in the multiple-team tie, it will be the only criteria used
2) Point-differential among common opponents will be used, with a +/-17 factor used in all games.
3) Following the point differential tiebreaker, if a multiple-team tie still exists for the final playoff spot(s), the playoffs will be expanded to an even number for play-ins on October 22nd, 2011. (Example, if a three-way tie exists for eighth-place, the seventh-place team will host a play-in opponent, and the remaining teams will meet in a play-in). Matchups for this situation will be based on coin flip, with first flip to determine who meets the highest seed available, and the remaining flip for home-field advantage in the remaining playin(s).

Okay, before I go any further, let me explain this, since Bisonguy wants every "t" crossed and every "I" dotted.

Lets say we have a four-way tie for seventh. One team as a better record among common opponents, and everyone else has the same record. The team with a better record is seventh.

The remaining coaches can't break their tie with point differential. All three flip coins. The one that doesn't match the other two (two heads and one tails) goes to #7. Then, #8 and #9 flip for home field.

Or, lets say there's just a three-way tie for eighth, and no tiebreaker is available. Too bad for #7, they are in a play-in. In other words, no team will be denied a playoff appearance because of a coin-flip.

If there is a four-way for sixth, and it's impossible to be broken, then, happy day, #10 gets in for a play-in. Flip for sixth, they get out of a play-in. Then figure out the matchups.

Now, back to regulations

K) Should a tie, or multiple-team tie, exist for a seed in the playoffs that will not expand the playoffs, common-opponent records, followed by point-differential among those games, will be used to separate seeds. Coin-flips will be the final tie-breaker for seeds.
L) Following this meeting, the playoffs will begin with any play-ins on October 22nd, followed by the quarterfinals on October 29th, the semifinals on November 5th, and the finals on November 11th.
M) In the quarterfinals of the playoffs, the #8 seed will travel to #1, the #7 will travel to #2, the #6 will travel to #3, and the #5 will travel to #4. If an #8-#9 playin is played the previous week, it's winner travels to #1. Playins involving a seed higher than #8 will have their winners advance to face the opponent with a seed the same number of positions lower than #1 than the highest seeded team in the playin's seed is higher than #8. (In other words, 7-10 goes to 2, you get it)

That should cover it. If you don't like it, win more games. It's that simple. If you're a four tied with five and you lose a coin flip, go win, or win another game in the regular season. Under these regulations, if you missed the playoffs because of the rotation, you were lower than eighth anyway. If you were tied, you were judged on the same criteria as the team or teams you were tied with, and you didn't miss the playoffs.

But, Bisonguy, if you don't like any or all of that, how about this?

All 12 make it, top four get byes, 12 at 5, 11 at 6, 10 at 7 and 8 at 9 October 22nd, quarters the next week, then semis, then finals. If teams opt up, more play-ins. And if we ever get to 16 teams at AAA, we would then have regional play to fix this. We would add a provision to allow the teams to change to regional play within a cycle, but it would not allow any more opt-ups other than those that declared when they were supposed to. That easy enough for ya?

And by the way, all of this meets the current scheduling guidelines of the HSAA, with the exception that some AAA's play their last game on October 19th, not the 18th.

[Bisonguy06]

I was trying to make a pretty simple point - you are breaking new ground by creating a division with an unbalanced schedule. In virtually all HSAA activities, teams play balanced schedules, meaning that they play all other conference opponents the same # of times. We're dealing with a new set of pros and cons here, and it's fair to point them out.

I'd say at this point that you have crossed all the t's and dotted all the i's...

[heimer]

There is no new ground here. It may look that way, as we currently don't have a system that endorses not playing all opponents in a division, league, or whatever. But in basketball, teams can choose how many times you play each other (unless you're in the EDC, where Supreme Chancellor and Emperor Ed Lockwood uses his behind-the-scenes influence to force the issue on scheduling), and baseball allows for weather to keep opponents from meeting and still figures it out for a tournament.

It may be new ground for football, but it's not new ground for activities.