All-State Players

[justbrowsing]

Its a joke that Bessette from Richland got only 2nd team!

TK - I know you're biased since you see Bessette every day, but out of curiousity, who do you think Bessette is better than that would put him on the 1st team as a linebacker? Grothmann, McCleary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

[justbrowsing]

gross's numbers were better[/quote]


Gross had over 300 carries. Give any one of those 1st or 2nd team running backs 300 carries and everyone of them would be over 2000 yards. In fact, most of them had more than half of Gross's total yardage with fewer than half of his carries. IMO, simply being overworked shouldn't earn an all state position. I'm not saying that Gross isn't a good ball carrier, but on that list of backs, he certainly wouldn't get a first team pick from me.

[9manfootballfan]

Here is the breakdown of all-state athletes by region and teams....

Reg 1 - 3 1st team and 4 2nd team = 7 total
Reg 2 - 4 1st team and 4 2nd team = 8 total
Reg 3 - 5 1st team and 5 2nd team = 10 total
Reg 4 - 2 1st team and 1 2nd team = 3 total
Reg 5 - 3 1st team and 3 2nd team = 6 total
Reg 6 - 4 1st team and 5 2nd team = 9 total

Mott Regent - 5 all state (3 1st, 2 2nd)
Napolean - 4 all state (3 1st, 1 2nd)
Dak Prairie - 4 all state (2 1st, 2 2nd)
Divide Co - 4 all state (2 1st, 2 2nd)
North Border - 3 all state (2 1st, 1 2nd)
Lakota - 3 all state (1 1st, 2 2nd)
Hillsboro - 2 all state (both 1st)
Wynd/Lidg - 2 all state (1 of each)
St John - 2 all state (1 of each)
Hankinson - 2 all state (1 of each)
Cent McClean - 2 all state (1 of each)
Ed/Kulm - 2 all state (both 2nd)
NCB and Glenburn each had 1 1st team
Rich/Tay, Richland, Hettinger, FSHP, Williams Co, and Oakes each had 1 2nd team.

The two from Central McLean were Torin Kolke (defense, safety) and Daniel Eslinger (Offense, Tightend), i heard Kolke had the most interceptions in the state, thats impressive

[Wild Wolves]

5 from one 9 man team is a little over the top for All-State.

I don't think I can find a way to disgree with that. Here goes anyway!

Gion most impressive stats at RB
Kautzman touches to TD's in amazing
Grosz defense wins championships hard to find imperical data to support this
Laufer a solid line man tell me how you could argue against a guy who blocked for a back or offense with the numbers M-R put up
Scweitzer - QB of the state champ, starter in the secondary made plays in all the games I saw.

So we have a RB, WR, LB, lineman, and DB

I would bet that you would be hard pressed to find better at each of those positions.

mccleary is a better lb
gross's numbers were better

I think MCleary is already on the all-state team so ......... OK someone who would bump Grosz off?
I would argue about Gross's numbers being better. The number that is most telling is YPC.

[hp fan]

MR has alot of All State Players Because they were the best team in the state. And all of them on the list are very deserving. You Napoleon fans have Gross and McCleary already on the first teams, so it is a mute point to bump a MR player from their spot.

I believe the comment was that some other people should have taken thier place (too many from one team). Now I haven't seen everyone play, and thats why we have the opportunity to discuss it, But i haven't seen anybody that can come close to thier numbers......(just wait and read the rest napoleon)....that isn't already a 1st team all-stater.

Oh by the way, from looking at the boxscores throughout the year, these MR kids seemed to put these numbers up playing about 2 quarters a night!

[rep]

MR has alot of All State Players Because they were the best team in the state. And all of them on the list are very deserving. You Napoleon fans have Gross and McCleary already on the first teams, so it is a mute point to bump a MR player from their spot.

Oh by the way, from looking at the boxscores throughout the year, these MR kids seemed to put these numbers up playing about 2 quarters a night!

the word you are looking for in the first paragraph is moot, not mute. there is no such thing as a mute point.

most teams put up their stats over two and three quarters. gross put up 400-plus yards in the ellendale game when there was no other rbs healthy for them...my guess is guys like gion would do the same if they were to play four quarters against more teams. that is why stats are a terrible indicator of postseason awards.

[Wild Wolves]

Here is a stat for you 13.2 yds. per carry.

Ouch I am surprised anyone else was allowed to touch the ball.

[rep]

i go back and forth on players like gion. i was really hoping to get a chance to see him play this season and didn't, so basically all i've got to go off of are stats (which, honestly, i am not a big believer in stats) and random anonymous people who for all i know, know nothing about football. his yards per carry average is really good, but in the end it is just a stat and stats lie all the time.

i think probably the big thing, is i question his durability. not so much season-wise. he's had some fairly ugly injuries and there really isn't much you can do about those, they happen and there isn't much rhyme or reason to them. at the same time he also hasn't gotten much of a chance to showcase his talent. he certainly is a lot different player now than he was his sophomore year. but i do question his in-game durability, as is most of the case with teams that blow out other teams in the regular season. in this year's playoffs, guys like gross proved they can handle 30-40 carries in a game. those are the running backs i dig on, guys that you can just feed throughout the game and they are difference-makers in the fourth quarter. gion hasn't had to/gotten a chance to as far as i know.

he's ripped off big runs consistently, and is usually on the sidelines by halftime, which says quite a bit about his ability, but i also think he hasn't played in a game where he's playing against people that are just as good as him and he has to find something else besides his athletic ability. again, i'm not ripping on the kid, i'm just not all that familair with him and am going off what little i do know about him.

that is partially why i defer to guys like gross being 'better' as a running back, which is basically a terrible word for this kind of comparision. gross is better at pounding defenses over the long-haul where i think gion has more big-play ability, is there really a 'better'? probably not, it just depends on what your preferences are and at that point, it makes an argument between the two fairly pointless.

[tommykramer]

Its a joke that Bessette from Richland got only 2nd team!

TK - I know you're biased since you see Bessette every day, but out of curiousity, who do you think Bessette is better than that would put him on the 1st team as a linebacker? Grothmann, McCleary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

154 tackles, 15 sacks in a very tough top to bottom region, where the main focus of the offense was to get him blocked. His best games were against the best teams, not in blowouts. He also was one of the key defensive players on Richland's state championship team and has already been all-state twice at LB. The three on the list you mentioned that I have seen play were also very good linebackers, I can't comment on Wisthoff since I did not see him play. Another LB I could see as all-state was Brodell from DP - he made it as a WR - but, he made an awful lot of plays for an undersized LB. But, I will stand by my statement - He definately deserved and earned 1st team all-state.

[Wild Wolves]

Rep

I don't know a ton about FB, but i do know that with over 100 caries getting 13.2 YPC is impressive. Also he scored 160 points on the year (sorry I don't know the TD to PAT break down) but I would guess that he scored at least 20 TD's rushing. That ends up being about 1 out of every 7 times he touched the ball.

His injuries were major and somewhat freakish. I don't think I could knock the kid in either of those cases. I would be more uneasy about a kid that misses a game here and a game there because of little injuries.

[psycho]

well then somethings messed up because he was imo the best lineman in region 2, and just the overall leader

I find the quote ironic that he was the best lineman in region two when he had a teammate make the 1st team on the offensive line. I would venture that in most coaches opinions that would mean that not only was he not the best lineman in region two but was not even the best lineman on his team. The quote above this one talks about how the voting went in the coaches meeting. I would think that this would be something that shouldn't be shared with anyone but the coaches at the meeting. It comes down to some people make the team and some don't. There is talk on this forum about the kid from Richland not being on the first team. I don't think some people have any idea how hard it is to make an All State team. Being on the 2nd team is pretty darned good. Everyone has loyalties to their own town or region. Maybe people should just congratulate the kids that are picked and leave it at that, because to complain about who did and didn't make it only devalues it for the ones who were picked and creates hard feelings for the ones whe weren't. It's no different than the game, someone wins and someone loses. When you lose you tip your hat to the other guy instead of complaining how or why you lost.

[Ocho Siete]

well then somethings messed up because he was imo the best lineman in region 2, and just the overall leader

I find the quote ironic that he was the best lineman in region two when he had a teammate make the 1st team on the offensive line. I would venture that in most coaches opinions that would mean that not only was he not the best lineman in region two but was not even the best lineman on his team. The quote above this one talks about how the voting went in the coaches meeting. I would think that this would be something that shouldn't be shared with anyone but the coaches at the meeting. It comes down to some people make the team and some don't. There is talk on this forum about the kid from Richland not being on the first team. I don't think some people have any idea how hard it is to make an All State team. Being on the 2nd team is pretty darned good. Everyone has loyalties to their own town or region. Maybe people should just congratulate the kids that are picked and leave it at that, because to complain about who did and didn't make it only devalues it for the ones who were picked and creates hard feelings for the ones whe weren't. It's no different than the game, someone wins and someone loses. When you lose you tip your hat to the other guy instead of complaining how or why you lost.

I think he meant D-lineman

[BballFan1307]

i did mean d - lineman , because he plays an end on offense, but imo he is better than bill breen, BY FAR, he's more athletic, quicker, better leader. Jake olsen was Hillsboro's second best player next to Grothmann

[Hinsa]

Psycho, just to clarify, my post was not about who voted for who but was about the voting method. When a kid gets votes for the first team and then in another round of voting gets no votes for the second team, something is flawed in the voting method. That needs to be addressed.

[justbrowsing]

Its a joke that Bessette from Richland got only 2nd team!

TK - I know you're biased since you see Bessette every day, but out of curiousity, who do you think Bessette is better than that would put him on the 1st team as a linebacker? Grothmann, McCleary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

154 tackles, 15 sacks in a very tough top to bottom region, where the main focus of the offense was to get him blocked. His best games were against the best teams, not in blowouts. He also was one of the key defensive players on Richland's state championship team and has already been all-state twice at LB. The three on the list you mentioned that I have seen play were also very good linebackers, I can't comment on Wisthoff since I did not see him play. Another LB I could see as all-state was Brodell from DP - he made it as a WR - but, he made an awful lot of plays for an undersized LB. But, I will stand by my statement - He definately deserved and earned 1st team all-state.

You didn't answer my question. If it's a joke that he wasn't first team, who should he have replaced? Wisthoff because you didn't see him play? That was my point. There are probably at least 10 guys in the state who could have an argument for 1st team based on stats or effectiveness, but you said it was a joke that he was a second teamer. So I ask again, who do you think was the joke on the 1st team that should have been replaced with Besette - Grothmann, McLeary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

[hp fan]

i go back and forth on players like gion. i was really hoping to get a chance to see him play this season and didn't, so basically all i've got to go off of are stats (which, honestly, i am not a big believer in stats) and random anonymous people who for all i know, know nothing about football. his yards per carry average is really good, but in the end it is just a stat and stats lie all the time.

i think probably the big thing, is i question his durability. not so much season-wise. he's had some fairly ugly injuries and there really isn't much you can do about those, they happen and there isn't much rhyme or reason to them. at the same time he also hasn't gotten much of a chance to showcase his talent. he certainly is a lot different player now than he was his sophomore year. but i do question his in-game durability, as is most of the case with teams that blow out other teams in the regular season. in this year's playoffs, guys like gross proved they can handle 30-40 carries in a game. those are the running backs i dig on, guys that you can just feed throughout the game and they are difference-makers in the fourth quarter. gion hasn't had to/gotten a chance to as far as i know.

he's ripped off big runs consistently, and is usually on the sidelines by halftime, which says quite a bit about his ability, but i also think he hasn't played in a game where he's playing against people that are just as good as him and he has to find something else besides his athletic ability. again, i'm not ripping on the kid, i'm just not all that familair with him and am going off what little i do know about him.

that is partially why i defer to guys like gross being 'better' as a running back, which is basically a terrible word for this kind of comparision. gross is better at pounding defenses over the long-haul where i think gion has more big-play ability, is there really a 'better'? probably not, it just depends on what your preferences are and at that point, it makes an argument between the two fairly pointless.

Thanks for the english lesson. I know it is stupid to argue among two great backs, but you leave me no choice. You are telling me that gross is a pounding, long haul back. I guess the game I saw he didn't do much pounding at all. In fact, McCleary got most of the carries because he is the one that could pick up the "tough yards" against a great defense. I guess I wasn't impressed and maybe I was expecting too much from him.
It is really too bad that the we didn't get to see Gion play. I would have loved to see what he could do against a defense like NGS. I only saw him a few times, but in the games I saw, I cannot remember a time that he was stuffed (stuck for no gain). It would take 2-3 defenders to have a chance at him. I wish that I could find some stats (as much as you hate them) but his yards after contact were unbelievable. Pounding out 8-10 yard runs that should have been 2-3 yards.
I have seen good backs that are made to look GREAT by bad 9-man defense. I want a back that can perform the clutch, against a great defense. Don't get me wrong I think Gross is a good back, but I didn't see that from him. I think alot of yards were racked up on poor defenses.

[rep]

i don't think gross is a pounding back in the sense of running guys over, necessarily. i think he is a pounding back in that he can carry the ball 30 times. more pounding as 'over the course of the game he wears defenses down' instead of 'good lord did he deliver a shot there'.

i think gross's biggest strength is his quick feet. he can make fairly quick moves and is pretty reliable as far as not fumbling. according to the ndhsaa he had just a couple of fumbles (not clue one if those stats are accurate though) despite logging a ton of carries.

honestly, i don't really have a definition for gross as a running back. he isn't really a power back in the sense of a dewald last season or a mccleary this season. he isn't a speed back or a jitterbug back. but he gets yards, can catch the ball out of the backfield and understands his role in the the imperials' offense.

but i think it is because gross is a kind of jack-of-all-trades back that most people aren't blown away by him. as far as playing against poor defenses, could be. region 1 was fairly top-heavy again this season with ngs and ek considered good teams and oakes considered fairly decent. against ek gross had a quiet 100 yards, quiet probably because mccleary dominated the fourth quarter and was the one player that really seemed to stick out above the rest. i didn't see the oakes/ngs game so i can't really comment.

gross's body of work next season is probably what should be judged against gion's this i'm thinking...just as far as keeping it consistent in a senior vs. senior type of thing. also, i'm certainly not trying to rip on mr's region or anything, but knowing next to nothing about it, how good are the defenses out there? from the scores the wildfire posted, it looks like they were in a similar situation to ngs, with one other real solid team in their region (richarton-taylor) while everyone else was just kind of a step below.

[NDinPHX]

I don't think that you can say that Gion can't rush 30 to 40 times a game, because he didn't. It wasn't his decision, it was his coach's. Should he have been allowed to run that many times over and over? That is another debate. I believe that if he was allowed to, he would have put up absolutely ridiculous all-time numbers on the season. But Coach Benson isn't interested in embarrassing other teams for the sake of stats. Should Mott-Regent have put silly numbers all season to get mentioned in the New York Times or any other national publication? Coach Benson is always trying to build good character kids who are hard working, stick together, gracious in victory and gracious in defeat.

[hp fan]

I didn't get to see a whole lot of the games out west this year. I do know that MR;s region was pretty weak, although when you have a team that bigger, faster, stronger its makes some pretty good teams look aweful. I guess I wouldn't look at the regular season as much as the postseason. I saw gion play in those games and he couldn't be stopped by St, John and until he got hurt, ran all over divide. THats why I would have loved to see what he would have done against NGS.

I know the discussion started with Gion and Gross, but honestly if you ask me, both of these guys benefited from great teammates. I think there are alot of backs that could rack up major yardage behind McCleary. and I think it also helps gion to have the best line in the state blocking for him.

The truth of the matter is they are both great backs and thier stats are products of their teammates and offensive strategies.

All that said I would still take Gion 10 times out of 10.

[rep]

All that said I would still take Gion 10 times out of 10.

dunno..i might take gross's mohawk 4 out of 10 times. man i wish gion could have played though...i hate it when there is a kid out there that is one of the best in the state and he can't get a chance to play in 'the big game'. any word on where he'll be going for college ball? last i heard it was probable that su/und/all of dac were giving him looks.

[tcbison]

I didn't get to see Gross play expect for the state championship game but I wasn't impressed. He had huge stats coming in but didn't show up in the biggest game of the year. McCleary was much better.

Gion did very good against Divide County.

[tommykramer]

Its a joke that Bessette from Richland got only 2nd team!

TK - I know you're biased since you see Bessette every day, but out of curiousity, who do you think Bessette is better than that would put him on the 1st team as a linebacker? Grothmann, McCleary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

154 tackles, 15 sacks in a very tough top to bottom region, where the main focus of the offense was to get him blocked. His best games were against the best teams, not in blowouts. He also was one of the key defensive players on Richland's state championship team and has already been all-state twice at LB. The three on the list you mentioned that I have seen play were also very good linebackers, I can't comment on Wisthoff since I did not see him play. Another LB I could see as all-state was Brodell from DP - he made it as a WR - but, he made an awful lot of plays for an undersized LB. But, I will stand by my statement - He definately deserved and earned 1st team all-state.

You didn't answer my question. If it's a joke that he wasn't first team, who should he have replaced? Wisthoff because you didn't see him play? That was my point. There are probably at least 10 guys in the state who could have an argument for 1st team based on stats or effectiveness, but you said it was a joke that he was a second teamer. So I ask again, who do you think was the joke on the 1st team that should have been replaced with Besette - Grothmann, McLeary, Wisthoff, or Grosz?

AAA has 6 linebackers and two lineman on the first team! If you are one of the top 5 defensive players in the state which Bessette is, you should be on first team all-state. Some of the guys on 1st team all-state defense were better offensive players than they were defensive. If all-state defense is what it should be - the best defensive players in the state, than Bessette deserved to be on the list. If its best all-around players that we couldn't find room on the first team all-state offense for, than he probably doesn't.

[andy_7]

Ya I'm not sure the system is totally correct either, I might be wrong but in 2005 Corey Bruner from Tri-County was his region player of the year and i think he wasn't on any of the all-state teams. I heard a rumor that our old coach wanted him as first team tight-end and didn't even put him in for linebackers.

[pakkyzoo]

Ya I'm not sure the system is totally correct either, I might be wrong but in 2005 Corey Bruner from Tri-County was his region player of the year and i think he wasn't on any of the all-state teams. I heard a rumor that our old coach wanted him as first team tight-end and didn't even put him in for linebackers.

Corey was first team all state linebacker that year.

[andy_7]

ya I'm I got mixed up on some info, sorry about that