Best Running Backs 9-man in the state

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Postby pakkyzoo » Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:16 pm

Big Hitter wrote:
longhornfan8 wrote:Is Johnansen a college calliber player?? do you think he will go anyware or is he just havin a really good year??
I definately think that he can play at the next level. One knock on him is he isn't that heavy but the kid has a good build to put on muscle. I know a coulpe of colleges have already asked to have tape on him.

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Postby Big Hitter » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:17 am

Hinsa wrote:Grothmann turned his ankle on the first play from scrimmage and was limping, but still out-ran Johansen on a 77 yard touchdown run. Johansen quit pursuing at the 15 yard line.

That play summed up the game and answers the question about who is better between Grothmann and Johansen.

Are you serious Hinsa Johansen was split out on the wide out nearly right on the side line Grothmann had a 20 yard head start on him Johansen still had 150yards on 20 carries and a TD on a verygood defense
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Postby Hinsa » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:49 am

Big Hitter wrote:
Hinsa wrote:Grothmann turned his ankle on the first play from scrimmage and was limping, but still out-ran Johansen on a 77 yard touchdown run. Johansen quit pursuing at the 15 yard line.

That play summed up the game and answers the question about who is better between Grothmann and Johansen.

Are you serious Hinsa Johansen was split out on the wide out nearly right on the side line Grothmann had a 20 yard head start on him Johansen still had 150yards on 20 carries and a TD on a verygood defense

I'm absolutely serious. Look at the replay - Johansen was even with Grothmann as he broke thorugh the line - although you are right, Johansen was to Grothmann's left - but Johansen never made up ground and stopped pursuing at the 15 with Grothmann 5 yards ahead. There was NO 20-yard head start.
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Postby Hinsa » Mon Oct 22, 2007 9:51 am

Also, Grothmann had 170+ yards and 2 TDs.

I'm not saying Johansen isn't good - he's very good. But Grothmann is better.
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Postby Pfenix » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:11 am

Brock Gion 275 yards 3 tds on 23 carries
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Postby G » Mon Oct 22, 2007 10:40 am

i would like to see mcleary and grothmann duke it out this weekend...gonna be some big hits between them...is mcleary a good back or is it just his size?
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Postby GRIDIRON GURU » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:34 am

A few things to keep in mind here when talking about the best running back in the state.

One is formation, Lakota, Hope, NCB, and Napoleon is going to line for the most part in the I formation, and run it at you.

So guy's like Johansen, Ihry, Haggenson, Cooley, and Gross, are a target before the snap.

The I formation is pretty easy to defend. So it says more about those guys offensive lines as much as it does about the back.

However in 9-man if you have the fastest kid on the field, and run a toss sweep get a couple guys to block, you are going to gain yards, and a ton of them. That is a good speedy back that can carry a team to 5 wins by himself.

If you have a great back that runs a 5.2 40 yard dash you better have a good line.

Grothman and Hillsboro run the Veer, you have to play assignment football on defense, The offense leaves unblocked people on the line of scrimmage every play and decide from his reaction who gets the ball, it's much harder to defend. Take nothing away from Grothman he is what makes that Veer go and allows his teammates the big rushing numbers in some games.

I do not know much about Gion from Mott but I do know he has a very nasty line getting after people up front that gives him his big yards per carry average.

 

I do not want to take anything away from any of these great backs but the point I want to make is that the "I" formation tail back has a tougher roe to hoe than the spread and veer backs.

 

 
Last edited by GRIDIRON GURU on Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Hinsa » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:04 pm

Well stated Gridiron Guru. Very thoughtful analysis with good points about I vs. Spread vs. Veer.
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Postby bigtuna21 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:46 pm

GRIDIRON GURU wrote:I do not want to take anything away from any of these great backs but the point I want to make is that the "I" formation tail back has a tougher roe to hoe than the spread and veer backs.

 

 


So let me get this 100% straight...

The back who has no lead blocker in front of him and runs between the guards 100% of the time (Grothman) has an easier "roe to hoe" than a back in the "I formation" with a lead blocker (whose main job is to open holes) and gets to run outside a large percentage of the time (Johansen, Ihry, Gross)???

 

That's an interesting take...never looked at it that way, I guess.

 

 
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Postby sports nut » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:54 pm

I will put McKay from W-L into the mix. He was tough on Saturday against NB (19 for 182) and he is smaller than anyone on the field. He never runs out of bounds, he tries to go through you every chance he gets. Tough runner for 150 pounds.
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Postby pakkyzoo » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:01 pm

bigtuna21 wrote:
GRIDIRON GURU wrote:I do not want to take anything away from any of these great backs but the point I want to make is that the "I" formation tail back has a tougher roe to hoe than the spread and veer backs.

 

 


So let me get this 100% straight...

The back who has no lead blocker in front of him and runs between the guards 100% of the time (Grothman) has an easier "roe to hoe" than a back in the "I formation" with a lead blocker (whose main job is to open holes) and gets to run outside a large percentage of the time (Johansen, Ihry, Gross)???

 

That's an interesting take...never looked at it that way, I guess.

 

 


The "I" formation has really no misdirection.  Its pretty much were going to line up, fallow the fullback through the hole, and you have to stop it. 

The veer (triple option) which is the offense Grothmann is featured in is an offense of reading and deception.  The quarterback reads the defensive end, if he bites down on the dive, the quarterack keeps it and runs the option with the tail back.  Well if ran right, the linebackers will either bite on the dive or fallow the quarterback outside.  If the linebackers don't bite on the dive and fallow the quarterback, it looks like grothmann has room to run free. 

The spread, is similar to the veer for runningbacks.  It is important on quarterback play.  The sprint option gets the quarterback and runningback on the edge of the defense.  Also the direct snap to the runningback.  Some teams use the quarterback as a lead blocker. 

Its easier to stop the "I" becuase you can key their stud tailback.  The veer you have to have your whole defense play fundamentally sound defense.  The spread forces you to gaurd the whole field.  Whether its 3 wide or 4 wide.  Defense has to respect the threat.
Last edited by pakkyzoo on Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby GRIDIRON GURU » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:20 pm

No lead blocker?  

Lets say Hillsboro runs inside veer, the qb reads the end man on the line of scrimmage who is unblocked, The end either doubles down or goes to backer. If the end crashes on the dive, the qb pulls it out for the second read or pitches it.  If the end commits to  the QB the qb slides his hand off the ball and gives to the fullback.

It is dependent on what the end man on the line of scrimmage does and it is very difficult to defend.  WHEN EXECUTED PROPERLY! 

In an "I" formation you will have one on one blocking up front with the fullback trying to make a lead block in space on a line backer.  The fullback tells you where the play is going 90% of the time. So if you don't want the tail back to beat you it's an easy read for the defense, ask any defensive coordinator what offense is easiest to defend.

So when a team has a great feature back,  a good athletic aggressive line, and runs out of the "I" formation, the defense knows what is coming and if they cant stop it that is a good back behind a good line.

Like I said before I do not want to take anything away from Grothman I think he is a stud! and I am sure that Hillsboro runs some first man through quick hitters and some inside trap plays for him and he gets a bunch of yards on his own.

But he fits in a veer system better than if we was lined up 7 yards deep and had 30 carries a game.

Either way he is a 1000 yard rusher, but the Veer makes Grothman and the Burro's and elite team and darn tough to beat.

 
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Postby pakkyzoo » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:28 pm

GRIDIRON GURU wrote:No lead blocker?  

Lets say Hillsboro runs inside veer, the qb reads the end man on the line of scrimmage who is unblocked, The end either doubles down or goes to backer. If the end crashes on the dive, the qb pulls it out for the second read or pitches it.  If the end commits to  the QB the qb slides his hand off the ball and gives to the fullback.

It is dependent on what the end man on the line of scrimmage does and it is very difficult to defend.  WHEN EXECUTED PROPERLY! 

In an "I" formation you will have one on one blocking up front with the fullback trying to make a lead block in space on a line backer.  The fullback tells you where the play is going 90% of the time. So if you don't want the tail back to beat you it's an easy read for the defense, ask any defensive coordinator what offense is easiest to defend.

So when a team has a great feature back,  a good athletic aggressive line, and runs out of the "I" formation, the defense knows what is coming and if they cant stop it that is a good back behind a good line.

Like I said before I do not want to take anything away from Grothman I think he is a stud! and I am sure that Hillsboro runs some first man through quick hitters and some inside trap plays for him and he gets a bunch of yards on his own.

But he fits in a veer system better than if we was lined up 7 yards deep and had 30 carries a game.

Either way he is a 1000 yard rusher, but the Veer makes Grothman and the Burro's and elite team and darn tough to beat.

 

I agree... Take a look at the Navy Midshippmen's offense. Which is a form of the veer option.  Their offense is actually called the "wingbone".  The two leading rushers on the team every year is their fullback and their quarterback.  Whose Hillsboro's leading rushers? Grothmann (fullback) and Meyer (quarterback).  What offense do they run? The veer. 
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Postby Ocho Siete » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:30 pm

The type of offense that a team runs shouldn't be an excuse as to why a RB is performing well.  Yes, the veer is hard to defend, but it is much, much, much, much, MUCH harder to execute properly.  Even if it seems like trick handoffs that are giving Grothmann easy yards, keep in mind he's still running up the middle most of the time.

The offense type that Hillsboro runs shouldn't take anything from Grothmann at all; if anything it makes Meyer seem that much better, being able to read the defense during play.
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Postby pakkyzoo » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:39 pm

Ocho Siete wrote:The type of offense that a team runs shouldn't be an excuse as to why a RB is performing well.  Yes, the veer is hard to defend, but it is much, much, much, much, MUCH harder to execute properly.  Even if it seems like trick handoffs that are giving Grothmann easy yards, keep in mind he's still running up the middle most of the time.

The offense type that Hillsboro runs shouldn't take anything from Grothmann at all; if anything it makes Meyer seem that much better, being able to read the defense during play.

Were not taking anything away from Grothmann.  I was just explaining why it is effective for the Burro's.  I was giving credit.
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Postby bigtuna21 » Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:42 pm

I'll break down my original post on the topic:

"He is a back who has no lead blocker in front of him."  FACT

"He runs between the guards 100% of the time."  FACT

"A back in the "I formation" generally has a lead blocker."  FACT

"He gets to run outside a large percentage of the time."  FACT

 


Now, again, I am taking nothing away from anyone because I've seen most of the noted RBs play, but...look at my post.

 

I never said one was harder to defend.

I never said one was harder to execute.

 

Line Andrew Grothman up deep in the "I"...let the center point in the direction that the play is going...and he would still rush for 10 ypc.

 

 

 

 
Last edited by bigtuna21 on Mon Oct 22, 2007 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:12 pm

NCB ran out of the I formation, but Haagenson always lined up at the fullback.  He had no lead blocker either and still racked up 1900 yards and 23 TDs on dives and traps.
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Postby NATURAL TALENT » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:59 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:NCB ran out of the I formation, but Haagenson always lined up at the fullback.  He had no lead blocker either and still racked up 1900 yards and 23 TDs on dives and traps.

90% of the guys on here have never watched him play. He basically carried NCB on his back on both sides of the ball, every game,  after they lost so many starters last year.  A great athlete no doubt, but there were so many good RB's this year everyone is stuck on "their guy." 
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Postby ND Football Guy » Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:22 pm

NATURAL TALENT wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:NCB ran out of the I formation, but Haagenson always lined up at the fullback.  He had no lead blocker either and still racked up 1900 yards and 23 TDs on dives and traps.

90% of the guys on here have never watched him play. He basically carried NCB on his back on both sides of the ball, every game,  after they lost so many starters last year.  A great athlete no doubt, but there were so many good RB's this year everyone is stuck on "their guy." 

I agree.  Senior Fullback Reid Haagenson (pronounced Hoe-gun-son) is kinda overlooked I think, but you're right maybe a lot of people didn't get a chance to see him play.  I had the pleasure of seeing him play once this year and he's the real deal.  6'2, 190 ... fast and strong ... and his stats speak for themselves.  Was averaging 10.0 yards per carry coming into the playoffs.   
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Postby Donavanbulldog » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:03 am

bigtuna21 wrote:I'll break down my original post on the topic:

"He is a back who has no lead blocker in front of him."  FACT

"He runs between the guards 100% of the time."  FACT

"A back in the "I formation" generally has a lead blocker."  FACT

"He gets to run outside a large percentage of the time."  FACT

 


Now, again, I am taking nothing away from anyone because I've seen most of the noted RBs play, but...look at my post.

 

I never said one was harder to defend.

I never said one was harder to execute.

 

Line Andrew Grothman up deep in the "I"...let the center point in the direction that the play is going...and he would still rush for 10 ypc.

 

 

 

 
Is this what they are going to do when they play napoleon.
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Postby Ocho Siete » Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:26 am

Donavanbulldog wrote:
bigtuna21 wrote:I'll break down my original post on the topic:

"He is a back who has no lead blocker in front of him."  FACT

"He runs between the guards 100% of the time."  FACT

"A back in the "I formation" generally has a lead blocker."  FACT

"He gets to run outside a large percentage of the time."  FACT

 


Now, again, I am taking nothing away from anyone because I've seen most of the noted RBs play, but...look at my post.

 

I never said one was harder to defend.

I never said one was harder to execute.

 

Line Andrew Grothman up deep in the "I"...let the center point in the direction that the play is going...and he would still rush for 10 ypc.

 

 

 

 
Is this what they are going to do when they play napoleon.


I doubt it.  What they've been doing so far has been working.

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