A Better Plan

[heimer]

Screw it, I don't care how many people trash me on this board for the following suggestion about football.

And, before I get there, let me just say that I have been labeled a Valley City apologist in the past because I'm originally from there. This is not motivated by their likely assignment to Region II (west) of AA football. If the plan is the plan, that's where they belong, and they'll be just fine. I believe in more classes, not fewer, and I'm not going to abandon that premise because of a regional shift.

That all being said, the coaches got it wrong when they voted to expand AAA to 16 teams with the addition of Legacy and Sheyenne.

Seriously, I know some great people at the AAA level. But their desire to have 16 teams for no sake but variety poses problems. And if they can't find any way to make a 14 team schedule work, then we need smarter people coaching AAA football.

Now, the suggestion.

It's time for 5 classes of football. This is not about championships, playoff appearances, any of that. This is about quality of play in the regular season and like schools being like schools.

Now, before Bisonguy, the Schwab, and any of the other Heimer-bashers take their shots, saying, "Well, what's your suggestion if you're so smart....blah blah blah," (reference evolution of basketball from posts past), here it is.

Top three classes are 10 teams. 9 game schedule, everyone plays everyone, and the top 8 make the playoffs.

Here it is.

AAAA:
West: Minot, Century, Bismarck, Mandan, Williston
East: West Fargo, Davies, Red River, South, Central

AAA:
West: Dickinson, Legacy, Watford City, Belcourt, St. Marys
East: North, Sheyenne, Jamestown, Devils Lake, Wahpeton

AA:
West: Valley City, Griggs/Barnes et al, Stanley, Beulah, Dickinson Trinity
East: Grafton, Shanley, Central Cass, Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley

A: (20)
West: Harvey, Berthold, Des Lacs, Bottineau, Standing Rock, Belfield, Hazen, Garrison, Rugby, Kenmare
East: Kindred, Hillsboro-Central Valley, E-E-K, Park River, Carrington, Larimore, Lakota, Oak Grove, May-Port, Northern Cass

9: The rest.

Let the opt-ups sort out the rest: I would see, in this scenario, Shanley goes AAA, Minot Ryan goes AA, Oakes goes A as they have declared they will now. In this scenario:

Add Shanley to AAA east. Would typically displace St. Marys, but St. Marys would likely opt up also. Belcourt down, Jamestown to west AAA.

Add Belcourt and Minot Ryan to AA west. Valley City and Griggs-Barnes-Everyone-Who-Needs-A-Home-Till-Hope-Page-Finley-Sharon-Can't-Field-A-Team-In-Two-Years-And-They-Talk-Griggs-Into-Getting-Remarried go to east. Lisbon and Enderlin-Maple Valley down.

Lisbon, Enderlin-Maple Valley, and Oakes to A east. Carrington go west, Kenmare down. May-Port and Northern Cass down.

I believe this creates a ton of balance, gives teams more options for fielding teams or choosing co-ops, and finds some natural breaks in enrollment for classification.

Yes, I know, travel travel travel. Again, you do it every other year. Top three classes playing everyone, no mystery. A playing everyone in region. Travel just isn't a reason to hate this. And it's one more title game for our lovely Bison Teammakers to clear, so, we'll have to have two games Friday and three Saturday. Oh the struggle to find a weekend when they are gone. If they can't, send it to GF for an extra year, and to H#ll with the Fargodome.

Fire away. I'll schedule a counseling session for the mental damage your comments are about to do later this week.

[go maji]

I'm fine with most of it except for one thing. You guessed it, travel .

#1 So you expect WIlliston to travel to Fargo and Grand Forks 5 times a year? That's insane. I'm not even from Williston. And they wouldn't even play their nearest neighbor (Dickinson)?


#2 So you're saying there would be 10 teams, and 8 will make the playoffs. Sounds like there would be another 2 win team making the playoffs (Davies a couple of years ago).

[heimer]

Williston isn't going to GF and Fargo five times a year.

Don't like the playoffs? Change them. Top 6, top 3 each region, region champs get a week one bye.

Or just take the top six and seed 1 thru 6, since everyone played each other.

Travel is no reason to hate this. Neither are the playoffs. Travel is overblown as an excuse for a sport that, at worst, demands 5 road trips a year. Playoffs can easily be tweaked.

[Sniper]

9-man class is way too big in this. It helps other classes in terms of teams making the playoffs but it hurts the 9-man because of the number of team that would be added. I may be wrong but it just seems like a way to help the current smaller AAA teams.

[go maji]

Sooo, let's say Minot plays all West teams and 2 East teams, where do those other 3 games come from?

[heimer]

Magi, Minot plays everyone in the class every year. 10 teams in the class, you and 9 others. You have nine games to play. 9 opponents and 9 games.

As for the 9-man division being to big, that's the first time that complaint has been raised. Most everyone is worried about it going away.

[Run4Fun2009]

the worst it gets for Williston is 3 trips east once every 4 years.

Magi, Minot plays everyone in the class every year. 10 teams in the class, you and 9 others. You have nine games to play. 9 opponents and 9 games.

The numbers just aren't clear with these statements...and I believe this is why go maji asked. How does Williston (or any West team) ONLY come east 3 times over 4 years with 10 teams in the class and 5 being located along the Red River?

[go maji]

heimer, so Williston is the only team not to play everybody(excluding east teams) in 1 year?

[heimer]

Hopefully this clears it up.

Everyone plays everyone every year. You get nine games. In a 10-team league, you have nine opponents.

Just like now, a team you play on the road this year is a team you host next year. So, if Williston plays at Red River this year, they play Red River at home next year.

There would be a system of travel partners:

Williston and Minot
Red River and Central
Mandan and Bismarck
Century and West Fargo
Davies and South

You would go to two sets of travel partners each year, and host two sets, then rotate with yours.

In year one, Williston and Minot would go to Red River and Central, go to Century and West Fargo, host Davies and South, and host Mandan and Bismarck. Then Williston would host Minot.

Red River and Central would host Williston and Minot, and host Bismarck and Mandan. They would then go to Century and West Fargo and go to Davies and South, and then Central would host Red River.

Bismarck and Mandan would go to Williston, Minot, Red River, and Central. They would host Century, West Fargo, South, and Davies, and then Bismarck would host Mandan.

South and Davies would go to Williston, Minot, Bismarck, and Mandan. They would host, Red River, Central, Century and West Fargo, and then South would host Davies.

Century and West Fargo would host Williston, Minot, Red River and Central, go to South, Davies, Mandan, and Bismarck, and then Century would host West Fargo.

Next year, flip the locations, stay with the same schedule.

Runforfun, I was wrong on the once in 4 years deal. I meant once in two. But the worst that happens is playing, outside your region on the road three times every other year.

[ndlionsfan]

I don't care what the enrollments are, but any public school in fargo or Bismarck need to be in the highest class. Add that to the fact that Dickinson and Williston are growing faster than any other school and there is no way you can trim the top class to 10. They all belong together. I do agree with you that the current AAA does not need 16 teams. 14 would work just fine

[heimer]

Why? Because you feel better about it? We have schools (non-public, of course) playing at different levels in the same towns constantly. Anytime anyone clamors about Ryan or Trinity or Oak Grove or Shiloh playing A because of their location, everyone hates on the idea because their enrollment is such a factor.

So, let enrollment be a factor.

[Flip]

I don't care what the enrollments are, but any public school in fargo or Bismarck need to be in the highest class. Add that to the fact that Dickinson and Williston are growing faster than any other school and there is no way you can trim the top class to 10. They all belong together. I do agree with you that the current AAA does not need 16 teams. 14 would work just fine

Agree with bolded (include WF too imo). Glancing through the plan it didn't seem horrible.

[ndlionsfan]

Why? Because you feel better about it? We have schools (non-public, of course) playing at different levels in the same towns constantly. Anytime anyone clamors about Ryan or Trinity or Oak Grove or Shiloh playing A because of their location, everyone hates on the idea because their enrollment is such a factor.

So, let enrollment be a factor.

Because those schools are just going to continue to grow anyway. Right now they are only slightly smaller than the other publics in both towns as well as both publics in GF. Definitely not a big enough gap to have in a different class.

[ndlionsfan]

I don't care what the enrollments are, but any public school in fargo or Bismarck need to be in the highest class. Add that to the fact that Dickinson and Williston are growing faster than any other school and there is no way you can trim the top class to 10. They all belong together. I do agree with you that the current AAA does not need 16 teams. 14 would work just fine

Agree with bolded (include WF too imo). Glancing through the plan it didn't seem horrible.

Yes I meant WF, too. I just always clump them with Fargo

[ndlionsfan]

In looking at the current enrollment and division breakdown, I'm surprised Ryan and velva have not opted up yet, especially since WNG and killdeer have. There's still time I guess, plan not finalized until end of sept. I'm shocked a few other coops haven't dissolved or dropped someone to fall down a class, too. Wonder where sawyer will end up as that could cause some shifting.

[LBC]

Here is another idea.

I don't care what the ultimate divisions are, they can still be decided by the current system of population. However, EVERYBODY makes the play-offs (first round is in region). You play who you want during the regular (7 game season). At the end of the season, each region's playoff spots are decided by powerpoints. The strong A teams can play AA teams, etc. So, you may not play teams in your region. The weaker AAA schools could try to field a schedule with AA or A schools. The weaker 9 man schools would look for other schools that they can be competitive with. Those teams which see their "star" rising could attempt to play other, higher caliber schools. Lots of problems with this. This would put a lot of stress on athletic directors, I understand that, but it is a thought. This is kind of how Minnesota does it.

[Indy5]

Heimer, its not the worst plan ever. I've always been one to agree travel isn't much of an issue in football because you don't play that many games and its only friday nights. My problem is the breakdown with the top two classes. As was earlier addressed, Dickinson and Williston are going to be growing a lot. My thing is, how can you decided Fargo North and South should be in different classes? I know South has been more successful, but those are very similar schools. I know that Sheyenne and Legacy aren't open yet so it'll take them a couple of years to be on par, but I don't see how they're going to be able to not be in the top class either.

[Flip]

Here is another idea.

I don't care what the ultimate divisions are, they can still be decided by the current system of population. However, EVERYBODY makes the play-offs (first round is in region). You play who you want during the regular (7 game season). At the end of the season, each region's playoff spots are decided by powerpoints. The strong A teams can play AA teams, etc. So, you may not play teams in your region. The weaker AAA schools could try to field a schedule with AA or A schools. The weaker 9 man schools would look for other schools that they can be competitive with. Those teams which see their "star" rising could attempt to play other, higher caliber schools. Lots of problems with this. This would put a lot of stress on athletic directors, I understand that, but it is a thought. This is kind of how Minnesota does it.

As I was reading this I thought to myself, "this is what MN does."

I'm not sure how much stress is put on the ADs. Just about every team in MN is in a conference so you just play your teams in your conference and then you play 0-2 non conference games.

[heimer]

Heimer, its not the worst plan ever. I've always been one to agree travel isn't much of an issue in football because you don't play that many games and its only friday nights. My problem is the breakdown with the top two classes. As was earlier addressed, Dickinson and Williston are going to be growing a lot. My thing is, how can you decided Fargo North and South should be in different classes? I know South has been more successful, but those are very similar schools. I know that Sheyenne and Legacy aren't open yet so it'll take them a couple of years to be on par, but I don't see how they're going to be able to not be in the top class either.

It's easy to decide. The top 10 enrollments are the top 10 enrollments. And so on.

I'm not deciding that this school, because of history, success, coaching, facilities, blah blah blah does or does not belong with others. Everyone on this site constantly screams about enrollment (325 is the holy grail, right). Enrollment is what enrollment is. When a school grows, it grows, period. Then it changes classification, period.

10 makes a 9-game schedule. 20 makes two regions with a 9 game schedule. The enrollment spreads on this work extremely well:

4A: 1124-500
3A: 489-154
2A: 152-103
A: 99-76
9-man: 75 and lower

There's no intentional "lets keep south and north or Dickinson and Williston apart" here. The numbers are what the numbers are. Its how we run it now, and with two new schools entering AAA, and new west schools entering the picture in AA, along with co-ops creating imbalance in who has to move up two classes just to keep a football team, I believe more classes with narrower spreads is the answer to keep things competitive and offer opportunity. If North doesn't like not being in South's class, let them opt up. If Dickinson and Williston are such good friends, let one opt up. But, for the top class, no one moves down if someone opts up. Then it's up to the coaches to do what they should have done in the first place: sit down and make a schedule work instead of hijacking Devils Lake and Hillsboro-Central Valley just to make the math easier.

[lovwatchingsports]

In looking at the current enrollment and division breakdown, I'm surprised Ryan and velva have not opted up yet, especially since WNG and killdeer have. There's still time I guess, plan not finalized until end of sept. I'm shocked a few other coops haven't dissolved or dropped someone to fall down a class, too. Wonder where sawyer will end up as that could cause some shifting.

If what I heard is true Velva will not have to opt up. Ryan dropped sawyer and velva picked them up in a coop.

[ndlionsfan]

In looking at the current enrollment and division breakdown, I'm surprised Ryan and velva have not opted up yet, especially since WNG and killdeer have. There's still time I guess, plan not finalized until end of sept. I'm shocked a few other coops haven't dissolved or dropped someone to fall down a class, too. Wonder where sawyer will end up as that could cause some shifting.

If what I heard is true Velva will not have to opt up. Ryan dropped sawyer and velva picked them up in a coop.

Was thinking that would probably happen. Hope Ryan opts up now, just wouldn't seem right with them in 9man. But at the same time that would then drop Langdon to 9man which doesn't seem right either

[ndlionsfan]

In looking at the current enrollment and division breakdown, I'm surprised Ryan and velva have not opted up yet, especially since WNG and killdeer have. There's still time I guess, plan not finalized until end of sept. I'm shocked a few other coops haven't dissolved or dropped someone to fall down a class, too. Wonder where sawyer will end up as that could cause some shifting.

If what I heard is true Velva will not have to opt up. Ryan dropped sawyer and velva picked them up in a coop.

Was thinking that would probably happen. Hope Ryan opts up now, just wouldn't seem right with them in 9man. But at the same time that would then drop Langdon to 9man which doesn't seem right either

Have also heard that the new South Prairie school will coop with Ryan, so that will move them up to A as well possibly even AA depending on how large the new high school ends up. Next in line to move down looks like Langdon, then either MPCG, NC, or R/T unless other changes happen before the Sept meeting. Would be my guess that they go with Langdon in the east and RT in the west to balance things out.

[bentheredunthat]

My thought is that east/west is not needed in a 10 team conference, is it? Just take the top ten, next ten, and next 10 based on enrollment. In a ten team class I would vote for a four team playoff. The sixth place team will have a losing record and doesn't need to be in the playoffs. 40% of teams making the playoffs is realistic. In class A if you have 20 teams and an eight team playoff, that's also 40%.

[NDplayin]

Ah, my dear friend Heimer- I've been gone so long that I had to blow the dust off my keyboard to begin.

Ready for a shock? I like much of Heimer's proposed plan. I also agree with him on two fronts- I think ND prep football needs a make over, and I was disappointed in the new plan. The one big difference between us is that he thinks top-down, and I think bottom-up.

As I've bitterly opposed a 3-class basketball system in the past, he will be surprised to learn that I'm not opposed to adding a division to football. They are two very different games, and having 11 players on the field at once with 22 starting positions (opposed to 5) drastically changes the way enrollment impacts the ability to compete- but that's a discussion for another time.

I would like to a class where Jamestown and Devils Lake can play with similar sized schools. I sympathize with the tough spot they are in under the current 4 division system- i.e. either get pounded by schools you have no legitimate prayer of being consistently competitive with, or pound of schools who have no legitimate shot of consistently competing with you. The problem is that the landscape of North Dakota doesn't offer a lot of schools that would fit into a class that would fit well for those 2, and while it's not perfect (nothing ever will be) Heimer's 10-10 idea comes as close as any other idea I've seen.

My only problem with Heimer's plan (there had to be one) is at the bottom- which is precisely where I think the biggest problem in North Dakota football is at the bottom, and I think it's precisely where the biggest fix is needed

Problem: Too many schools are playing 9-man in North Dakota

Disclaimer: I love 9 man- I would support a 6 man class. I love the way 9 man allows an individual school to keep its football identity. Even more, I love the way 9 man increases the opportunities for young men to compete rather than decreasing those opportunities via a co-op that spans 100 miles and requires a travel commitment that equals hours a day. I want North Dakota to always have a strong 9 man class.

The reality: As it stands now, the strong 9-man class which I WISH we had is cluttered and dominated by schools that should be fielding 11 man teams.We have too many schools with 11 man enrollments hiding in the 9 man division. I don't know what they are hiding from, but they are definitely hiding. I'd assume each school has their own reasons- maybe their hiding from the big bad school whom they think would thump them if they were 11 man, maybe they are making excuses for terrible participation numbers, maybe they just enjoy being the big kid on the block (who can blame them). None-the-less, if you are big enough to play 11 man, you should play 11 man.

Solution: A hard-line enrollment cutoff- You can not play 9 man unless your male enrollment falls below a certain line for 2 years in a row. If you are over the line, even barely, you are big enough to field an 11 man team.

I would set the line at a male enrollment of 65. Big classes come and go and so do small classes, but with a male enrollment of 65 you'd average out to have 16 boys per class (rounding down). If even half of the boys in each class go out (and I consider 50% to be a pathetic participating rate for football), then you have 8 boys out for football per class. Granted not all 8 are likely to be varsity level athletes, but if you put your 5 best seniors - 5 best juniors - and 1 stud sophomore on the field you should have 11 guys capable of competing in the smallest 11 man division and you should still have some capable seniors, juniors, and even sophomores ready to play in a reserve role.

In a nut shell, I feel that with 65 boys and even a pathetic 50% participation rate you are capable of being in the lowest 11 man class. If for some reason you can't, you should probably look in your own backyard for the source of the problem rather than blame the system. There are currently 14 schools bigger than 65 males slated to play 9-man in the next plan, some as high as 77, 76, 75...

The Big PictureHere's what I would do- rather than look at it top-down- I'd work bottom up. Any school under 65 boys can play 9-man unless they wish to opt up. That would give us a class of 31 nine-man teams prior to opt-ups. Enrollments from 65 boys to 84 boys would make up Class A- there are 25 of those schools for the next rotation. Enrollments 85-134 would give Class AA 20 teams. Enrollments 135-399 makes 11 3A teams. Enrollments 400+ gives us 14 4A teams.

9-man- (64 and under)- 31 Teams
A- (65-84)- 25 Teams
AA- (85-134)- 20 Teams
AAA- (135-399)- 11 Teams
AAAA- (400 and up) 14 Teams

[Flip]

Just for reference the 9 man cutoff in MN is 165 total enrollment. I've heard it's moving down to 150 next year though.