A Better Plan

The teams in 9 Man

Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Tue Oct 28, 2014 11:53 pm

Flip wrote:Just for reference the 9 man cutoff in MN is 165 total enrollment. I've heard it's moving down to 150 next year though.

Also for reference, the enrollment cutoff for 8 man in Montana is 119 total enrollment. I'm not sure how much of a difference the extra player should make in terms of enrollment, but let's look at what multiple states do and then decide what we think suits North Dakota best. Let's avoid the temptation to copy anyone.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 29, 2014 12:52 am

What is the # of players where you think a team is too big for 9 man and should be 11 man?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:10 am

Are those number for MN and MT total enrollment or male enrollment?
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:02 am

ndlionsfan wrote:Are those number for MN and MT total enrollment or male enrollment?

We both said "total" so that would be my assumption. I know MN's is total enrollment.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 1:45 pm

The Montana number I provided is total enrollment- so 119 total would be the equivalent of 59.5 male enrollment.
Flip wrote:What is the # of players where you think a team is too big for 9 man and should be 11 man?

Flip- I won't answer "How many players" because I think that's a dangerous game. Look at it this way- what if a very moderate sized school like Rugby, Carrington, Bottineau, or Lisbon with anywhere from 80-120 boys in the school only had the 18 best athletes in the school participate in football? Would we say they should play 9-man because only 18 players are out? How many players are out is a function of participation rate which varies school to school, but when the right athletes go out, even a bad participation rate can make a great team.

I put my fictional enrollment cutoff at 65 males for this reason: 65 averages out to 16 boys per grade. I think you can field a solid 11 man varsity team with those numbers. My example was if out of 16 per grade, the 5 best senior athletes, 5 best junior athletes, and 1 sophomore stud made up a starting 11, you should still have some decent athletes left over on the sidelines (even if your participation rate was only a measely 50%, you'd still have 8 boys out per grade).
Last edited by NDplayin on Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:27 pm

15% x 16 ≠ 8
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby d_fense » Wed Oct 29, 2014 2:28 pm

15 percent participation from 4 classes of 16 boys would leave you with fewer than 10 boys out for football.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 3:45 pm

My fault guys- I meant a measly 50%, which is what I wrote in my first post. I'll edit that most recent post to say 50%
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:35 pm

I think most teams would be happy with 50% participation.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:03 pm

Flip wrote:I think most teams would be happy with 50% participation.

I don't know what to say about this. Perhaps I'm an idealist of sorts, but I feel that, especially in the smallest two divisions, 50% participation for the sport of football is VERY poor.

First, football offers more opportunities to compete when compare it to a sport like basketball. Basketball puts 5 guys on a court- football puts 11 on a field, plus the opportunity for different defensive and offensive players. It also has varying positions for many types of athletes, larger/smaller- slower/quicker- etc. A majority of nose-guards just aren't build to be on a basketball court, but they might be the most effective player on the football field. In my experience, most kids quit participating in a sport as they get older because they don't feel like there is spot for them to compete, and football offers more spots than any other sport.

Second, football has less competition than most other sports. Basketball, wrestling, and hockey all compete for athletes in the winter. Track, baseball, and golf compete for athletes in the spring. Football only has cross country- which is a great sport but not a big draw in terms of participation.

For several consecutive years, the NFHS has reported record-breaking participation numbers (the highest of all sports as well) for football.

In conclusion, especially in the lower divisions, where the ratio of opportunities to athlete is so high and the competition from other sports is so low, I think a 50% participation rate is very poor.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:20 pm

You make a lot of good points, but football is also the sport with the greatest chance of getting injured.

More and more parents won't let their kids play because of the whole concussion thing too.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:11 pm

Flip wrote:You make a lot of good points, but football is also the sport with the greatest chance of getting injured.

More and more parents won't let their kids play because of the whole concussion thing too.

You also make good points, and yet the NFHS still shows trends of high school football participation increasing and being the highest of all the sports they sponsor
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby HammerTime » Wed Oct 29, 2014 11:50 pm

I think participation has become a much bigger factor in the lower classes than I realized. A very similar conversation is going on on the "A" forum.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby Flip » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:01 am

NDplayin wrote:You also make good points, and yet the NFHS still shows trends of high school football participation increasing and being the highest of all the sports they sponsor

do you have a link?

edit: looked it up myself numbers seem very slightly down since 2007. I only looked at 11 man.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby NDplayin » Thu Oct 30, 2014 10:44 am

Flip: It was in Coach&AD magazine that I read an article about it. If numbers are indeed down since 2007 that's not a good thing- wish they would be trending up. Football by far has the highest participation rate of all sports and most participants- but as I said, that makes sense because of increased opportunities and less competition from other sports.

I know that not every school in the bottom two classes has 50% rate for football but many of them do. At any rate, I feel like there has to be some number where the lack of boys going out for the sport is a local problem that needs to be improved locally and not a problem for the NDHSAA to bail you out by slipping you down a division.
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Re: A Better Plan

Postby letsrap » Thu Oct 30, 2014 2:11 pm

I agree with NDplayin. Typically low participation rates are a symptom of a problem in the program. If you bend the rules for one program because they do not have the participation it would be no different then what went on with debacle with Valley City. High School athletics are suppose to be more then just winning and losing, its about building character, pride for you school and community along with many other things. It often changes when the school, parents and the kids see the value of these aspects and success usually comes with it. Take Oakes for example. Their program for a long time lacked numbers went through alot of seasons where wins were scarce but they have brought in a coach who has built a program and the kids, parents and community have bought in on it and now have a successful program.
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