2022 Preliminary Plan

[Flying Wallenda]

Sorry for the confusion, my numbers were based on the current four class system. Making 11AA and 11A larger.

Got it - so if I'm hearing you right, you'd move up the schools besides St. Mary/VC/Wahp/Horace to AAA, add those 4 schools to AA, and keep 9 man as is? A 3 class plan?

[The Schwab]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

[Class B]

The ultimate KISS-plan is to realign the divisions circa 1996. 11A, 11B and 9-man. Provide flexibility for opt up (and down under the right circumstances). Let the Class A and Class B dichotomy in BB, VB and all other sports drive what defines A and B for football. Jamestown has more in common with the WDA than they do with Central Cass or Beulah. So enough with the participation ribbon division of 11A!

This year's version of the 11B playoffs brings back so many memories of how great playoffs were back then. Highly competitive, wide open and exciting from the opening round to the Dakota Bowl.

[WalkingStick]

So essentially...let's go back to 3 classes (plus 6-man or independent for those who struggle with numbers)

[Flying Wallenda]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

How many schools would be in each class according to 21-22 projections?

[Flying Wallenda]

The ultimate KISS-plan is to realign the divisions circa 1996. 11A, 11B and 9-man. Provide flexibility for opt up (and down under the right circumstances). Let the Class A and Class B dichotomy in BB, VB and all other sports drive what defines A and B for football. Jamestown has more in common with the WDA than they do with Central Cass or Beulah. So enough with the participation ribbon division of 11A!

This year's version of the 11B playoffs brings back so many memories of how great playoffs were back then. Highly competitive, wide open and exciting from the opening round to the Dakota Bowl.

Agree - I'd be all for 3 classes.

[WalkingStick]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

How many schools would be in each class according to 21-22 projections?

I can't see those numbers unless I'm looking in the wrong place. I only see the ones with the adjusted enrollment.

https://ndhsaa.com/uploads/files/2021_2 ... egions.pdf

[Flying Wallenda]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

Looking at the numbers released for 21-22, this would put the following schools in AA following the 110 - 399 enrollment figures:

Devils Lake (321)
Turtle Mountain (313)
Watford City (312)
VC (256)
Wahpeton (221)
St. Mary (175)
Horace (169)
Central Cass (158)
Kindred (134)
Velva Garrison (132)
Buelah (130)
EEKM (129)
Four Winds (128)
Deslacs/Burlington (129)
Grafton (126)
South Prairie (125)
Park River FL (119)
Stanley (112)

[The Schwab]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

Class AAA would have 16
Class AA would have 17 (a couple of teams are 1 or 2 kids below)
Class A would have 41
9-Man would have 24

I did the counting quickly so some may be a couple off.

[Flying Wallenda]

I feel that if we are going to have 4 classes, the top two need to be made up of more than just class A basketball schools. If 4 classes are what football needs to have (which might make the most sense I would have the cutoff lines be something like this with no multipliers:

AAA- 400 boys or higher (16 teams this year)
AA- 110 boys to 399 boys (14 teams)
A- 65 boys to 109 boys
9- 64 boys and under

Class AAA would have 16
Class AA would have 17 (a couple of teams are 1 or 2 kids below)
Class A would have 41
9-Man would have 24

I did the counting quickly so some may be a couple off.

Here's where I see the difficulty lying: EEK/Grafton/South Prairie/PRFL/Stanley combined for a record of 7-37. Take out Grafton, and its 4-32. Now we through those schools into having to play St. Mary, Wahp, VC, Devils Lake, Watford City, Horace, etc, instead of, using Park River as an example, Northern Cass, Central Mclean, Thompson, Carrington, etc. I don't see that as a gain for those schools.

Add that to the fact that all the privates, powerhouses like Langdon, Hillsboro, Thompson, DT, solid program's like Harvey, Bowman County, etc. no longer have to go through CC, Kindred, Buelah, etc - I just don't see this as a huge gain.

[The Schwab]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

[ndlionsfan]

I think the current fball plan is about as good as its going to get. Class A schools competing against each other and Class B schools doing the same. I think there could be some tweaks with the opt down (no reason for Botno to be playing 9man right now or Surrey being able to continue to opt down after a playoff run). Current plan also allows coops when needed without being threat of being moved up to AA (see Velva/Garrison). I agree with Schwab on not understanding how the NDHSAA can have a system in place to constantly change fball but certainly can't touch anything with basketball. No reason a similar plan can't be done with enrollments for bball with Class A all together as one and Class B separated similarly to the fball plan.

[Bisonguy06]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

[Flying Wallenda]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

[Sportsrube]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

I am right there with you and so are a lot of people. Unfortunately the NDHSAA will never do anything to basketball or volleyball, mainly because of the private schools.

[maddog1971]

How can you argue with this years setup.... I think it is very competitive. You had the number #1 team in the state all year get knocked off in the first round. You have top ranked teams squaring off in the quarter finals. You have the number 1 team in the state going against the a team who beat them early in the year..... Langdon and Kindred going at it as well.... who does not want to watch either of those games? I will watch both for sure. How can you complain? Yes put St. Mary's back in the mix and it is a one school race.

[The Schwab]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

Since 1964 (year after Class C held it's last state tournament) boys basketball has been left relatively unchanged. In that time we have had 1 division of football (ended in 1974), 3 divisions of football (1975-1996) and 4 divisions of football (1997-present). I don't know how long they have re-aligned divisions and regions every two years, but it's been going on as long as I can remember. Cavalier, for example, has played in the AA, A and 9-man state championship game since 2004.

I know that we have been operating under the same "4 divisions" since 1997, but this year had a major shake up and I consider realignment every two years a new football plan.

[Class B]

How can you argue with this years setup.... I think it is very competitive. You had the number #1 team in the state all year get knocked off in the first round. You have top ranked teams squaring off in the quarter finals. You have the number 1 team in the state going against the a team who beat them early in the year..... Langdon and Kindred going at it as well.... who does not want to watch either of those games? I will watch both for sure. How can you complain? Yes put St. Mary's back in the mix and it is a one school race.

I have ZERO issue with how 11B is set up. It's been an intriguing division all season long. Has it even been this balanced and wide open? For the first 15 or so years it was dominated by the west (mainly Region 3) and the last 7-8, by the east. Now while I agree the favorites this year still lie in the east, this is the first year in many we can't say for certain who the favorite is.

The 11AA/A set ups are just a waste of time and energy. Go back to the 90s and make it one division.

[WalkingStick]

I don't mind 4 classes; Class 11B has been intriguing this year and actually there is some intrigue in the 11AA & 11A divisions; small classes will always lead to below .500 teams in the postseason...and this year's AA/A crossover games were going to open that door...I think there will be less next season with less crossover games between the division.

I just wish the people making the decisions were a bit more transparent on why opt downs are allowed for some but not others in both A & B.

[The Schwab]

How can you argue with this years setup.... I think it is very competitive. You had the number #1 team in the state all year get knocked off in the first round. You have top ranked teams squaring off in the quarter finals. You have the number 1 team in the state going against the a team who beat them early in the year..... Langdon and Kindred going at it as well.... who does not want to watch either of those games? I will watch both for sure. How can you complain? Yes put St. Mary's back in the mix and it is a one school race.

I'm going out on a limb and disagree that 11B isn't as wide open as everyone else on this board. The winners of the HCV/Central Cass games and the Kindred/Langdon games will win their semi-finals in convincing fashion.

[Flying Wallenda]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

Since 1964 (year after Class C held it's last state tournament) boys basketball has been left relatively unchanged. In that time we have had 1 division of football (ended in 1974), 3 divisions of football (1975-1996) and 4 divisions of football (1997-present). I don't know how long they have re-aligned divisions and regions every two years, but it's been going on as long as I can remember. Cavalier, for example, has played in the AA, A and 9-man state championship game since 2004.

I know that we have been operating under the same "4 divisions" since 1997, but this year had a major shake up and I consider realignment every two years a new football plan.

If you are of the opinion that 2 years for looking at numbers is to often to determine where teams are located, How long do you believe should be mandated before numbers are looked at to determine who is in each division?

The last vote to move to a 3 class system in basketball fell about 60% -%40. I believe historically this is pretty common. When the constituents consistently vote against 3 classes its got to be hard (impossible?) to make that move.

[The Schwab]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

Since 1964 (year after Class C held it's last state tournament) boys basketball has been left relatively unchanged. In that time we have had 1 division of football (ended in 1974), 3 divisions of football (1975-1996) and 4 divisions of football (1997-present). I don't know how long they have re-aligned divisions and regions every two years, but it's been going on as long as I can remember. Cavalier, for example, has played in the AA, A and 9-man state championship game since 2004.

I know that we have been operating under the same "4 divisions" since 1997, but this year had a major shake up and I consider realignment every two years a new football plan.

If you are of the opinion that 2 years for looking at numbers is to often to determine where teams are located, How long do you believe should be mandated before numbers are looked at to determine who is in each division?

The last vote to move to a 3 class system in basketball fell about 60% -%40. I believe historically this is pretty common. When the constituents consistently vote against 3 classes its got to be hard (impossible?) to make that move.

I don't have the magic answer for anything, I'm looking at it from an equity standpoint. I don't know how often they should re-align but 2 years is fine with me.

In 2015 or 2016 the three class system passed the district chairs meeting with a vote of 14-2. The NDHSAA board didn't even consider it.

I believe that decision upset a lot of people, and I believe since that time schools are only looking at it from their gain from the plan. If it doesn't directly benefit their school, they won't vote for it. I'll use regions 3 and 8 (since Watford went A) as an example. Why would those schools ever vote for a 3 class system?

[The Schwab]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

Since 1964 (year after Class C held it's last state tournament) boys basketball has been left relatively unchanged. In that time we have had 1 division of football (ended in 1974), 3 divisions of football (1975-1996) and 4 divisions of football (1997-present). I don't know how long they have re-aligned divisions and regions every two years, but it's been going on as long as I can remember. Cavalier, for example, has played in the AA, A and 9-man state championship game since 2004.

I know that we have been operating under the same "4 divisions" since 1997, but this year had a major shake up and I consider realignment every two years a new football plan.

If you are of the opinion that 2 years for looking at numbers is to often to determine where teams are located, How long do you believe should be mandated before numbers are looked at to determine who is in each division?

The last vote to move to a 3 class system in basketball fell about 60% -%40. I believe historically this is pretty common. When the constituents consistently vote against 3 classes its got to be hard (impossible?) to make that move.

I don't have the magic answer for anything, I'm looking at it from an equity standpoint. I don't know how often they should re-align but 2 years is fine with me.

In 2015 or 2016 the three class system passed the district chairs meeting with a vote of 14-2. The NDHSAA board didn't even consider it.

I believe that decision upset a lot of people, and I believe since that time schools are only looking at it from their gain from the plan. If it doesn't directly benefit their school, they won't vote for it. I'll use regions 3 and 8 (since Watford went A) as an example. Why would those schools ever vote for a 3 class system?

[Flying Wallenda]

I guess the biggest problem I have with the plan is the need for NDHSAA to constantly adjust for football creating new plans, adjusting regions and divisions every other year. And there has never been anything done about basketball

Agree with this.

I am looking to pick the best enrollment cutoff numbers, set it and forget it for a very very long time. The plan shifts where the population shifts.

I’m interested in the history of the changing of the football plan. Please fill me in on that.

Since 1964 (year after Class C held it's last state tournament) boys basketball has been left relatively unchanged. In that time we have had 1 division of football (ended in 1974), 3 divisions of football (1975-1996) and 4 divisions of football (1997-present). I don't know how long they have re-aligned divisions and regions every two years, but it's been going on as long as I can remember. Cavalier, for example, has played in the AA, A and 9-man state championship game since 2004.

I know that we have been operating under the same "4 divisions" since 1997, but this year had a major shake up and I consider realignment every two years a new football plan.

If you are of the opinion that 2 years for looking at numbers is to often to determine where teams are located, How long do you believe should be mandated before numbers are looked at to determine who is in each division?

The last vote to move to a 3 class system in basketball fell about 60% -%40. I believe historically this is pretty common. When the constituents consistently vote against 3 classes its got to be hard (impossible?) to make that move.

I don't have the magic answer for anything, I'm looking at it from an equity standpoint. I don't know how often they should re-align but 2 years is fine with me.

In 2015 or 2016 the three class system passed the district chairs meeting with a vote of 14-2. The NDHSAA board didn't even consider it.

I believe that decision upset a lot of people, and I believe since that time schools are only looking at it from their gain from the plan. If it doesn't directly benefit their school, they won't vote for it. I'll use regions 3 and 8 (since Watford went A) as an example. Why would those schools ever vote for a 3 class system?

I think we all can agree that the football plan is the toughest thing the association faces on a bi-yearly basis. I'm of the opinion that no plan in the world exists that provides complete equity. I think the current plan is the fairest its been. I also believe that revisiting numbers every two years is sufficient. I'm torn on the opt downs- making the playoffs and opting down? Hard to wrap my head around. Yearly opt downs? Probably necessary in my mind.

I'm not aware of the 3 class plan passing the district chairs in the mid teens. I did a google search and found that in 2017 all member schools were polled on moving to 3 classes for BB and the vote fall 78 (59%) to 55 (41%). That to me is very telling data. Hard to make a move off of that data.

You are 100% correct, people look at that from whatever side of the fence they stand. You do, I do, everyone does. I imagine the administration from Watford City would lead the charge in moving to 3 classes - as they are looking out for the kids that fill their building every day. Tough spot. Understandable.

I feel the moment that the constituents vote in majority for a 3 class plan, it will happen. Until then, I don't believe there is a chance. My 2 cents.

[The Schwab]

I think the biggest hurdle we face is fear of change. The plan did pass the district chairs meeting 14-2 in one of those two years. I don't know what changed and why people changed their mind. I think that football is the easiest one for the NDHSAA to change and adjust. Why? Because each class has one title game. Easy to schedule. I don't believe that NDHSAA will add 6 man to the mix and play the title game at the same venue. Why? It's not easy.

I might be the only one who thinks this way, but the reasons there aren't 3 classes in basketball:
1. Fear of not making as much money
2. Basketball tournaments wouldn't fit in their nice 3 week window they have now, unless you're going to have the boys and girls tournaments on the same weekend and/or in the same venue. What would they do about TV if they did that? Again, fear of change.
3. NDHSAA wants volleyball to follow the same alignment as basketball. Volleyball isn't broken.
4. Afraid of the private schools. There are people with money that can get around NDHSAA's rules. Look at the cases where they grant and deny "hardships".

I know that people like myself are part of the problem. People like me will go to class B basketball tournaments no matter what teams are competing. Why? Because it's a family tradition and it's a longing for the way things used to be. We'll go and root for the Powers Lakes and Wilton Wings of the world. We long for the days of Hillsboro vs. Epping. We know deep down in our hearts that the chances of David winning are slim to none. But there's always that chance.