Make HS Football Great Again

The teams in Class A

Make HS Football Great Again

Postby theallaroundballer » Thu Jun 15, 2017 8:11 pm

So we're in the slowest part of the sports calendar, and so not much banter here on the board. I'd like to change that. The smell of fall will be here before we know it, and Friday night lights will be upon us. And with that, the schmucks in Valley City once again disappointed with the new plan. I'm glad A is reverting back to 32 teams, but very upset about how it comes at the expense of AA. 10 teams and a statewide format? Wahpeton to Watford City? Is this a joke? The NDHSAA goes ape over missed school time due to extracurriculars, and yet they signed off on this cluster? Those kids will miss a whole day being on a bus for 8 hours. But of course they won't even look into using the QRF formula to save travel costs, because numbers and math are for nerds. This is FOOTBAWW for real men. We don't use any of those convoluted analytics conceived by those filthy commies from across the Red.

And yeah, let's continue to coddle some of these 9 man schools that would beat 65-75% of the teams competing in A right now. I applaud Nedrose for opting up knowing they're gonna got smoked every week for the next two years. You take your lumps early, recruit kids with character and integrity, and build a winning culture from there. But why do any of that? Why send your kid to Central or RR when they can be a star for Thompson? Cavalier 3-peated in AA 15 years ago. Oakes has the 2nd biggest 9 man enrollment behind Shiloh. And I don't think I need to elaborate on the Skyhawks.

So without further ado, let me introduce my plan. It keeps the 4 class system with a 16-16-32-35 spread. Would appreciate discussion and opinions from anyone interested. 9 man is easily the most difficult to segregate into regions as the majority of schools skew east. I did four regions with nine teams with top 4 making the playoffs. I know this leaves no opportunity for non-region games, but because of the expanded number of regions teams, there's a chance for traditional rivals to play. A six for six is doable, but I want to see what people think of the 4 with 9 first.

AAA (No changes)

East
Central
Davies
Devils Lake
North
Red River
Sheyenne
South
WF

West
Bismarck
Century
Dickinson
Jamestown
Legacy
Mandan
Minot
Willison

AA (Some newcomers in the East)

East
Central Cass
Grafton
HCV
Kindred
Oak Grove (right behind PRFL, and a private to boot)
Park River-FL (3rd biggest total A enrollment behind Beulah and NT, and they'd more than compete in AA)
Shanley
Wahpeton

West
Beulah
New Town (I know, have a hard enough time in 9 man, but 2nd biggest after Beulah even with F & R meals)
Trinity
St. Mary's
Stanley
Watford City
Turtle Mtn.
Valley City

A (Seven biggest 9 man schools plus Standing Rock)

Region 1
Central Dakota
EEK
Lisbon
Maple Valley
Mayport-CG
M-NS/SC
Northern Cass
Oakes

2
Bottineau
Carrington
Cavalier
HWC
Langdon
Rugby
Thompson
W-N-G

3
Berthold
D-LB
Kenmare
Nedrose
Ryan
Trenton/TC
Velva
Williams Co.

4
Bowman Co.
Garrison
Hazen
Heart River
Killdeer
Shiloh
Southern McLean
SR (playing JV schedule this year, in a perfect world they'd be here)

9 Man

Region 1
FSHP
Hankinson
Lamoure
Napoleon
New Rockford
Richland
South Border
Steele
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood

2
Benson Co.
Four Winds
Hatton/Northwood
Lakota
Larimore
Midway/Minto
North Border
North Star
St. John

3
Divide County
Drake
Dunseith
MLS
North Prairie
Parshall
Ray
Surrey
TGU

4
Beach
Central McLean
Grant Co.
Hettinger
Linton
Mott-Regent
New Salem
Richardton-Taylor
Strasburg-Zeeland
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby cmplx6 » Sat Jun 17, 2017 7:47 am

I think this would be a great plan, have an 8 team bracket from AAA and AA for the playoffs with a 9 game regular schedule. And have a 16 team bracket for A and 9 man with an 8 game schedule. You could even expand both regular season by 1 game and start the season a week earlier.

AA would be controlled by the private schools. A would be the most competitive. I would like to see you make AA for all the private schools. Then expand A and AAA. I'm still a big supporter of yearly schedules and taking the worst record from AAA, AA, and A and dropping them down, and taking the best from 9 man, A, and AA and moving them up. Create new schedules every year. Have more and smaller regions. And put teams into the playoffs based off of a points system. Have a 10 week regular schedule and only have 8 teams in the playoffs at each level. There is no need to have 24, or even 16 teams in the playoffs. Nobody likes to se games that are lopsided by 50+ points in the first and second round.

Break all levels into smaller regions including AAA and AA. Credit smaller levels more playoff points for playing higher level schools. Then we could get a regular season game between Park River and Red River. The higher level teams that are not a successful would want to play down to get a win, and the lower level teams could jump ahead in the playoff rankings with a win over the higher level school.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby magic man » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:22 am

Instead of all of the bias (heavy Private school bias all the way around), let's just base the classes on just the number of male enrollment?

That BS talk of getting a reduction in number based on free and reduced lunch, is nuts.. A kid is a kid.. Not a half of a kid, if he qualifies for a lunch break.

How would it look that way? No bias, just the raw numbers.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby madseason » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:02 am

A kid got chewed out for not making it to weightlifting class. He had to help out on the farm throwing square bales. I have thrown square bales. That is a lot more work than lifting weights IMO!. It is cardio and lifting weights!! That coach should go out with this kid and work for a couple hours throwing bales???? Too many tough farm kids that don't play football cause of BS like this. The coach might have lost a great freshman lineman?
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby madseason » Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:53 am

theallaroundballer wrote:So we're in the slowest part of the sports calendar, and so not much banter here on the board. I'd like to change that. The smell of fall will be here before we know it, and Friday night lights will be upon us. And with that, the schmucks in Valley City once again disappointed with the new plan. I'm glad A is reverting back to 32 teams, but very upset about how it comes at the expense of AA. 10 teams and a statewide format? Wahpeton to Watford City? Is this a joke? The NDHSAA goes ape over missed school time due to extracurriculars, and yet they signed off on this cluster? Those kids will miss a whole day being on a bus for 8 hours. But of course they won't even look into using the QRF formula to save travel costs, because numbers and math are for nerds. This is FOOTBAWW for real men. We don't use any of those convoluted analytics conceived by those filthy commies from across the Red.

And yeah, let's continue to coddle some of these 9 man schools that would beat 65-75% of the teams competing in A right now. I applaud Nedrose for opting up knowing they're gonna got smoked every week for the next two years. You take your lumps early, recruit kids with character and integrity, and build a winning culture from there. But why do any of that? Why send your kid to Central or RR when they can be a star for Thompson? Cavalier 3-peated in AA 15 years ago. Oakes has the 2nd biggest 9 man enrollment behind Shiloh. And I don't think I need to elaborate on the Skyhawks.

So without further ado, let me introduce my plan. It keeps the 4 class system with a 16-16-32-35 spread. Would appreciate discussion and opinions from anyone interested. 9 man is easily the most difficult to segregate into regions as the majority of schools skew east. I did four regions with nine teams with top 4 making the playoffs. I know this leaves no opportunity for non-region games, but because of the expanded number of regions teams, there's a chance for traditional rivals to play. A six for six is doable, but I want to see what people think of the 4 with 9 first.

AAA (No changes)

East
Central
Davies
Devils Lake
North
Red River
Sheyenne
South
WF

West
Bismarck
Century
Dickinson
Jamestown
Legacy
Mandan
Minot
Willison

AA (Some newcomers in the East)

East
Central Cass
Grafton
HCV
Kindred
Oak Grove (right behind PRFL, and a private to boot)
Park River-FL (3rd biggest total A enrollment behind Beulah and NT, and they'd more than compete in AA)
Shanley
Wahpeton

West
Beulah
New Town (I know, have a hard enough time in 9 man, but 2nd biggest after Beulah even with F & R meals)
Trinity
St. Mary's
Stanley
Watford City
Turtle Mtn.
Valley City

A (Seven biggest 9 man schools plus Standing Rock)

Region 1
Central Dakota
EEK
Lisbon
Maple Valley
Mayport-CG
M-NS/SC
Northern Cass
Oakes

2
Bottineau
Carrington
Cavalier
HWC
Langdon
Rugby
Thompson
W-N-G

3
Berthold
D-LB
Kenmare
Nedrose
Ryan
Trenton/TC
Velva
Williams Co.

4
Bowman Co.
Garrison
Hazen
Heart River
Killdeer
Shiloh
Southern McLean
SR (playing JV schedule this year, in a perfect world they'd be here)

9 Man

Region 1
FSHP
Hankinson
Lamoure
Napoleon
New Rockford
Richland
South Border
Steele
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood

2
Benson Co.
Four Winds
Hatton/Northwood
Lakota
Larimore
Midway/Minto
North Border
North Star
St. John

3
Divide County
Drake
Dunseith
MLS
North Prairie
Parshall
Ray
Surrey
TGU

4
Beach
Central McLean
Grant Co.
Hettinger
Linton
Mott-Regent
New Salem
Richardton-Taylor
Strasburg-Zeeland
I Think you have it figured out. Makes sense. But every year some towns move in and out by enrollment, or by some teams opting up. Does any team opt up anymore?
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:45 am

Nedrose opted up from 9-man to Class A
Killdeer opted up from 9-man to Class A
Bishop Ryan opted up from 9-man to Class A
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby theallaroundballer » Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:09 pm

madseason wrote:A kid got chewed out for not making it to weightlifting class. He had to help out on the farm throwing square bales. I have thrown square bales. That is a lot more work than lifting weights IMO!. It is cardio and lifting weights!! That coach should go out with this kid and work for a couple hours throwing bales???? Too many tough farm kids that don't play football cause of BS like this. The coach might have lost a great freshman lineman?

Was this in Park River, Mad?
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby madseason » Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:18 pm

theallaroundballer wrote:
madseason wrote:A kid got chewed out for not making it to weightlifting class. He had to help out on the farm throwing square bales. I have thrown square bales. That is a lot more work than lifting weights IMO!. It is cardio and lifting weights!! That coach should go out with this kid and work for a couple hours throwing bales???? Too many tough farm kids that don't play football cause of BS like this. The coach might have lost a great freshman lineman?

Was this in Park River, Mad?
Not sure where it was. But school used to start after labor day, so the farm kids could help with the harvest. Now days, the schools don't give a crap about farmers, EXCEPT they care about their TAX dollars!! When I was in high school (not that long ago 80s) I could get a waiver and miss the first couple of weeks of school to help on the farm. Highly doubt a kid could get that now?
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby NDPREP » Thu Aug 24, 2017 7:08 am

I know we don't want to think we are getting old but who are we kidding the 80s were 30 years ago, a good chunk of current teachers weren't even born then, haha!
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby madseason » Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:02 pm

NDPREP wrote:I know we don't want to think we are getting old but who are we kidding the 80s were 30 years ago, a good chunk of current teachers weren't even born then, haha!
45 is the new 25!! :)
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Flip » Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:28 pm

magic man wrote:
That BS talk of getting a reduction in number based on free and reduced lunch, is nuts.. A kid is a kid.. Not a half of a kid, if he qualifies for a lunch break.

Unless they're foreign exchange students, then we don't want to count them, right?
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Wilbur » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:14 am

theallaroundballer, love that plan, but it makes way too much sense for the NDHSAA to implement it. After all, it takes Shiloh out of the 9-Man Division. (being sarcastic).
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby magic man » Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:34 am

Flip wrote:
magic man wrote:
That BS talk of getting a reduction in number based on free and reduced lunch, is nuts.. A kid is a kid.. Not a half of a kid, if he qualifies for a lunch break.

Unless they're foreign exchange students, then we don't want to count them, right?



What part about a "kid is the kid "are you not comprehending?

However, if you're going to take away numbers for a school based on a kid being on free and reduced lunch, with the thought that they are less likely to play sports, then you should do the same for a foreign exchange student, especially when most countries the kids come from haven't even heard of football.

I would bet that there are more free and reduced lunch kids playing football vs foreign exchange students playing football.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby theallaroundballer » Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:04 pm

UPDATED:

Took some time to make a few revisions to my original plan. I decided to bump AA up to 18 teams, taking the next two highest male enrollments from A (Hazen and Southern McLean) and moving them up. They add some much needed travel balance to the West, lightening the load a bit for Stanley and Watford City. Fortuitously, Central McLean is the next highest 9 man school, who along with Standing Rock hopefully getting back to a varsity schedule in 2 years, will replace those two in Region 4. So the final format is 16-18-33-33.

The only problem I have is with 3 of the 10 biggest 9 man enrollments coming from the southwest, we're left with a dearth of 9 man schools in the area. And that's not including New Salem, who would be next up in A if Standing Rock keeps playing JV. I settled on Parshall going south because, while unfair to them, every other school's travel would be even more absurd. Region 4 will already be a travel nightmare with Linton and Strasburg both east of the Missouri, so we might as well confine it all to one region. It's a rough scenario, but sacrifices have to be made, and with all due respect to 9 man football, I'd rather they be made there than compromising schools playing at the higher levels.

Schedule for AAA and AA: 9 game regular season with 2 non-conference games. Playoff formats and dates remain unchanged, with the exception of state championships played on Saturday on 3:30 and 7:00, with yearly rotation. Something has to be done about this 4 games in one day business. Nobody wants to watch a game at 9:00 am. Now imagine how the 16 and 17 year olds who wake up at 6:30 to play in it feel. It dilutes the product and atmosphere a state championship matchup should feature. Figure something out (and by that, I mean $$$) with SU's new AD to keep them on the road that Saturday, or go back to rotating it with the Alerus. With UND's lease up with them next year, and with everything I've heard about the situation, they could have a lot of open Saturdays starting next fall.

Schedule for A and 9 man: 9 game regular season with 2 non-conference games, even for the 9 team regions. Top three from each region make the playoffs, with region champs earning byes the first weekend. Playoffs need to be condensed. It puts an emphasis on the regular season, and we don't need to see every game be 60-10 in the first round of 9 man. All it does is create the possibility of a star player getting hurt because he was foolishly left out there in the late 3rd-4th quarter. State championships on Friday at 3:30 and 7:00 with yearly rotation.

So without further adieu, my pipe dream plan for 2019-2020. Feel free to discuss gents. I plan on emailing this to Matt Fetsch in the hopes that the Activities Assn. has an epiphany.

AAA (No changes)

East
Central
Davies
Devils Lake
North
Red River
Sheyenne
South
WF

West
Bismarck
Century
Dickinson
Jamestown
Legacy
Mandan
Minot
Willison

AA

East
Central Cass
Grafton
HCV
Kindred
Oak Grove
Park River-FL
Shanley
Valley City (moving from West, much more favorable travel)
Wahpeton

West
Beulah
Hazen
New Town
Southern McLean
St. Mary's
Stanley
Trinity
Turtle Mtn.
Watford City

A

Region 1
Central Dakota
EEK
Lisbon
Maple Valley
Mayport-CG
M-NS/SC
Northern Cass
Oakes

2
Bottineau
Carrington
Cavalier
HWC
Langdon
Larimore
Rugby
Thompson

3 (9 teams)
Berthold
D-LB
Kenmare
Nedrose
Ryan
Trenton/TC
Velva
WNG
Williams Co.

4
Bowman Co.
Central McLean
Garrison
Heart River
Killdeer
Mott-Regent
Shiloh
Standing Rock (playing JV schedule this year. Hopefully some wins there will encourage them to move up, especially in a region with three 9 man teams acclimating to the 11 man game)

9 Man

Region 1
FSHP
Hankinson
Lamoure
Napoleon
Richland
South Border
Steele
Wyndmere/Lidgerwood

2 (9 teams)
Benson Co.
Four Winds
Hatton/Northwood
Lakota
Midway/Minto
New Rockford (moving from 1, much easier travel)
North Border
North Star
St. John

3
Divide County
Drake
Dunseith
MLS
North Prairie
Ray
Surrey
TGU

4
Beach
Grant Co.
Hettinger
Linton
New Salem
Parshall
Richardton-Taylor
Strasburg-Zeeland
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby JMHS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 3:33 pm

This plan is logical and makes sense. My only adjustment would be to move Shanley and St. Mary's to AAA, not because they are privates, but because of their geographical advantage that is, access to a larger population base. Furthermore, ANY school that has a student population large enough to play A basketball should be competitive enough to play AAA football. IMO
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Flip » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:21 pm

I'm not positive, but I think both Shanley and St. Mary's have opted up to play Class A basketball in the past. I don't think they belong in AAA, I don't Devils Lake does either, but they seem to always be near the top in AA. There isn't a perfect plan out there.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby JMHS » Wed Sep 13, 2017 5:11 pm

You're right, there isn't a perfect plan. Not being from North Dakota, it just seems that certain schools have, in my view, a blatant advantage when it comes to football classifications. Any school from a larger city in this state that chooses to play football at a lower level has a definite advantage. Kudos to those schools that opt up.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Mandan » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:04 pm

Just to clear up a few things here... Shanley and St Mary's have never had to "opt" up in basketball, they've been in class A forever and wouldn't be forced to move down unless they went below 200 total students. This isn't like football where the plan is redone every two years.

Shanley and St Mary's WANTED to stay in AAA but were not allowed to because there was no option provided to opt up into AAA. So if they had the choice, they'd probably love to be back up in AAA. Unless they've gotten comfortable dominating AA, but I'm guessing they'd prefer to be AAA if given the choice.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:42 pm

Mandan wrote:Just to clear up a few things here... Shanley and St Mary's have never had to "opt" up in basketball, they've been in class A forever and wouldn't be forced to move down unless they went below 200 total students. This isn't like football where the plan is redone every two years.

Shanley and St Mary's WANTED to stay in AAA but were not allowed to because there was no option provided to opt up into AAA. So if they had the choice, they'd probably love to be back up in AAA. Unless they've gotten comfortable dominating AA, but I'm guessing they'd prefer to be AAA if given the choice.


The cutoff is 325 students and there were a few years where Shanley was well under that and still chose to stay in A for BB (don't know about BSM on this)
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Mandan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:24 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:
Mandan wrote:Just to clear up a few things here... Shanley and St Mary's have never had to "opt" up in basketball, they've been in class A forever and wouldn't be forced to move down unless they went below 200 total students. This isn't like football where the plan is redone every two years.

Shanley and St Mary's WANTED to stay in AAA but were not allowed to because there was no option provided to opt up into AAA. So if they had the choice, they'd probably love to be back up in AAA. Unless they've gotten comfortable dominating AA, but I'm guessing they'd prefer to be AAA if given the choice.


The cutoff is 325 students and there were a few years where Shanley was well under that and still chose to stay in A for BB (don't know about BSM on this)


The point where you are forced to go class A is 325. But the number where you are forced to go class B is 200. If you are in the middle of those two numbers, you can choose which level you play at. But you only declare a choice if you are moving. If you stay, you don't have to say anything, you stay where you are. I know all this only because I was at Trinity when it was decided to move to class B. We were closer to the 200 number than 325. I'm guessing a lot of people don't know about the 200 number because only Beulah has moved up and down recently, and once they got under 325 they moved at lightning speed to get back to class B.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Mandan » Tue Sep 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Check out page 12, especially Section c on the NDHSAA Constitution and bylaws.
Page heading is Article II: Classification of Schools

https://ndhsaa.com/files/Constitution_and_ByLaws.pdf
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby Flip » Wed Sep 20, 2017 3:56 pm

Thanks for sharing. I had never heard of the 200 enrollment thing before. My wording was incorrect to say "opt up." But as Run stated Shanley could have played Class B.
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Re: Make HS Football Great Again

Postby GridironFiend » Tue Sep 26, 2017 9:56 pm

Over time the number of 9 man teams will continue to grow and sooner or later A and AA will be splitting among about 28-32 teams. A teams are already dropping JV games left and right because of lack of kids or freshman and sophomores having to play varsity. The lack of students is one thing, but also remember, youth football numbers are going to continue to decline with parents not wanting their kids risking head trauma. This will also lead to lower numbers in high school football. Already, parents of even the best athletes in metropolitan areas are steering their children to lesser contact sports. I fear the future of football will be changing drastically in the next 10 years. Unfortunately, the lower number of participants will be magnified greatly in small ND schools.
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