Realignment talk: Here we go

The teams in Class AA.

Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby scruffy » Mon Nov 02, 2009 6:06 pm

One thing that needs to change is the "AAA" playoff system. Allowing four out of six teams from each conference in the playoffs is ridiculous. Now it means nothing to qualify. It should be a final four format.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby bballfan7 » Mon Nov 02, 2009 7:23 pm

scruffy wrote:One thing that needs to change is the "AAA" playoff system. Allowing four out of six teams from each conference in the playoffs is ridiculous. Now it means nothing to qualify. It should be a final four format.


I agree that something has to change with the AAA playoff format. I like the top four teams idea but another thing to do is why not take the top 3 teams from each conference, give the #1 seed from the west and the east a bye in the first round. Then have the #2 seed from the east play the 3 seed from the west and so on. I just think that the number one teams in each conference won the regular season and should deserve a bye which essentially they have now playing poor competition, but why risk the injury. Sometimes you will have a 2 seed from one conference that is clearly not as good as a the 3rd seed from the other conference so I think this would work out for everyone. I just dont like how teams that are 4-5 games below .500 can make the playoffs.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NorthDakota11 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 9:37 am

To all of you that think numbers fix everything and make you competitive (well i guess 2-7 is competitive to Steve in AAA) Fargo North has 615 kids to get on their sideline... I listened to the Bismarck/North game on the radio Friday night and it sounded like they had trouble getting 35-40 kids out for their team... Numbers don't make you competitive... if they did Trinity wouldn't be playing in the semi-finals this weekend.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:00 pm

NorthDakota11 wrote:To all of you that think numbers fix everything and make you competitive (well i guess 2-7 is competitive to Steve in AAA) Fargo North has 615 kids to get on their sideline... I listened to the Bismarck/North game on the radio Friday night and it sounded like they had trouble getting 35-40 kids out for their team... Numbers don't make you competitive... if they did Trinity wouldn't be playing in the semi-finals this weekend.


You make absolutely no point, but thanks for playing. :lol:

Numbers don't make you competitive, but no matter how you divide them, 10 teams, 12 teams, 14 teams, 16 teams, whatever, there's no other way to create a system. It would be very difficult to create a system based on "competitive history". I hear the argument a lot. Teams that are "traditionally competitive" should be classed together.

My question would then be, "Should teams that are not traditionally competitive be classed together?" If that were the case, there would be a ton of movement that would bring about waling and gnashing of teeth from many schools.

Sorry, but the numbers are the only way to do it.

Along this topic, after listening to the arguments here, I can admit the 10 team top class plan has it's flaws. I get that. In the end, there is probably more credibility in a 14 team class, and if Devils Lake has to "struggle it up", as it was put by a poster above, I can live with that. But, I feel it important to point out that it's not right to swear off an idea simply because of a small number in a class. As much as it's time for me to admit that the idea has flaws, I truly believe there are some people here that have to really look into just exactly what the top enrollment schools in the state look like. If there are 10 teams that look like each other and no one else, we shouldn't just swear off the idea because 10 is not enough for a class. No one used to sneer at the "Big 8" champion in college football as a weak champion just because the PAC 10 or Big 10 had more teams.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Nov 03, 2009 8:19 pm

Steve, you have no credibility on this because just one year ago, you were telling us that we had exactly TWELVE schools that look alike in this state. I would go back and cut and paste your own words, except that NDplayin has already done that and you didn't catch it.

Davies makes it 13, right? How did the number become 10? What have Williston, Jamestown, and Dickinson done in just one year to fall out of your list of top tier schools?
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NDplayin » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:00 pm

steve34 wrote:If there are 10 teams that look like each other and no one else, we shouldn't just swear off the idea because 10 is not enough for a class.


Really??? I think this is a good time to assemble a collection of all our favorite Steve34 quotes.

Nov. 16, 2008
steve34 wrote:Here's a concept you need to start to embrace: The top 12 enrollment schools in North Dakota all look like each other. They all offer essentially the same activities. They all have the extra activites that we don't typcially see in a lot of schools, like swimming and diving, gymnastics, orchestra, soccer, and debate. They are a perfect class with each other. Breaking up that nice group because Watford City is too good to be A would be a travesty.

also Nov. 16, 2008
steve34 wrote:The top 12 schools belong together in everything, period. The state is being held hostage in basketball and volleyball by administrators clinging to the idea that B Shot will magically return to some big glory hayday like they had 30 years ago..

Nov. 20, 2008
steve34 wrote:The more I listen to the small schools b***h and moan, the more I think it's time for the big schools to form their own association. They just don't need the NDHSAA anymore. The majority of the people in the state understand that Fargo (3), West Fargo, Grand Forks (2), Jamestown, Bismarck (2), Mandan, Dickinson, Minot, Williston, and Belcourt are in a different league than everyone else.

Interesting Steve, less than a year ago you included Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston among the 12 teams that "the majority of the people in the state understood" were in a different league than anyone else. How have those three schools changed? Heck, Dickinson High's enrollment is higher this year than last year, and this year's football team was more competitive than when you wrote those statements.
Nov. 16, 2008
steve34 wrote:Shanley has informed the HSAA that they will be willing to come back when Davies enters the picture. Eventually, either Bismarck or West Fargo will have an additional public school, and 3A will expand without 2A changing much.
You can't play a season with a 15 game league. You need the right numbers for scheduling. 12 gets it done. Two six team conferences, 5 league games for everyone, and three more with a travel alliance in the other league. That leaves one game for everyone to do with what they please. Williston can play Sidney, South can keep Edina, and so on. With 14, the travel alliance becomes unbalanced, and the rotation gets ugly. 15 is worse. And they will actually come halfway with you when Davies enters, since there will be 14.

Nov. 22, 2008
steve34 wrote:Also, the non-conference games are not the problem at 3A you describe. They will operate on a travelling alliance plan. Three west schools will play the same three east schools and the other three west schools will do the same.

Example: Dickinson, Mandan, and Bismarck High will play Jamestown, West Fargo, and Fargo South. Then, Williston, Minot, and Century will play Red River, Central, and North.

So this scheduling problem you have been talking about Steve...... interesting.....
Nov. 19, 2008
steve34 wrote:It is not the job of the NDHSAA to create an equitable playing field for every school in North Dakota. The goal is an equal chance to compete, and as soon as the small schools learn that, we'll get some things corrected.

Nov. 16, 2008
steve34 wrote:Seriously, I don't mean to be negative, but you people have to learn to see the world outside of your own little box to understand what goes on.

Steve... I think you and the rest of Devils Lake should reread those last two qoutes and take them to heart yourselves.

In fact Steve, what has changed in less than year? Abslutely nothing except that you and Devils Lake
are hitting the panic button because you are afraid you might get moved back up. Its not about whats best for North Dakota, its about whats best for you and your individual school and you will do or say anything and contradict yourself over and over to try and get your way. In adddition to that you are unprofessional and rude. On multiple occassions making derogatory comments to "B-shots", "one room school houses", and the people that come from them. Way to resort to such "sounds" arguements Steve.... which leads me to my favorite quote... Nov. 3, 2009
steve34 wrote:You make absolutely no point, but thanks for playing. :lol:



.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Nov 03, 2009 10:35 pm

You have either followed this topic very closely in the past year or you have a lot of time on your hands!
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 3:38 pm

I don't have credibility? You just took posts from a basketball thread and used them on a football thread. But I'm glad that you did, because my "lack of credibility" demonstrates your own.

Had people embraced the "Super 12" concept that I referred to, we would be out of this mess, and several others. Davies would enter, Williston would drop, and life would go on. Also, we'd finally have a system for basketball and volleyball that is much more fair and equitable. It was people like you that shot the "Super 12" idea down. But all of a sudden, 14 looks good to you, when 12 looked bad before? :roll:

The Shanley comment was valid, when the idea was proposed. Verified with administration. THAT IS WHAT HAS CHANGED, IDIOT! Stated already on this post. Just this week in the Fargo Forum, a glowing article about Shanley returning to the playoffs. They have changed their opinion, and that his what makes it a new situation. But thanks for asking what has changed, even though I have already answered that question. You may want to take a remedial reading class or get a GED. :idea:

Upon further review, scheduling is a problem. The math part is not, but the feel is. The coaches have changed their opinion on that. ANOTHER CHANGE!!!!! They don't like playing half of a season of non-conference games.

I still stand by the second association comment. The HSAA operates at a snail's pace because of people like you, who have never bothered to attend a game outside of your one-room school house world. If we had another association competing with them for membership, things would get done much more quickly.

Oh, and by the way, I live in the Hope-Page school district. Just thought you'd like to know. That has not changed. Now, there's a life out there, just for you, waiting to be found. :idea:
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NorthDakota11 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:14 pm

steve34 wrote:I don't have credibility? You just took posts from a basketball thread and used them on a football thread. But I'm glad that you did, because my "lack of credibility" demonstrates your own.

Had people embraced the "Super 12" concept that I referred to, we would be out of this mess, and several others. Davies would enter, Williston would drop, and life would go on. Also, we'd finally have a system for basketball and volleyball that is much more fair and equitable. It was people like you that shot the "Super 12" idea down. But all of a sudden, 14 looks good to you, when 12 looked bad before? :roll:

The Shanley comment was valid, when the idea was proposed. Verified with administration. THAT IS WHAT HAS CHANGED, IDIOT! Stated already on this post. Just this week in the Fargo Forum, a glowing article about Shanley returning to the playoffs. They have changed their opinion, and that his what makes it a new situation. But thanks for asking what has changed, even though I have already answered that question. You may want to take a remedial reading class or get a GED. :idea:

Upon further review, scheduling is a problem. The math part is not, but the feel is. The coaches have changed their opinion on that. ANOTHER CHANGE!!!!! They don't like playing half of a season of non-conference games.

I still stand by the second association comment. The HSAA operates at a snail's pace because of people like you, who have never bothered to attend a game outside of your one-room school house world. If we had another association competing with them for membership, things would get done much more quickly.

Oh, and by the way, I live in the Hope-Page school district. Just thought you'd like to know. That has not changed. Now, there's a life out there, just for you, waiting to be found. :idea:


Has to resort to personal attacks because he doesn't make a reasonable argument and can't convince anyone he's right about what he wants... = STEVE34

You live in the Hope-Page school district... wouldn't that make you one of these one room school house people who is still dragging his knuckles on the ground like all of the rest of us?

What does finding quotes from a basketball thread instead of a football thread have to do with anything? Shouldn't all your views kind of work together? Or was he just trying to some what point to the fact that you contradict your arguments on an almost topic by topic basis to make your point... a point which is never made because we just read in some other topic you trying to make a point by saying the complete opposite of your argument on the topic you're posting on currently.

And before you tell me to get a GED... i have an Economics degree that I got in 3 1/2 years... i'm good in the education area.

"The top 12 schools belong together in everything, period. The state is being held hostage in basketball and volleyball by administrators clinging to the idea that B Shot will magically return to some big glory hayday like they had 30 years ago.."

"The more I listen to the small schools b***h and moan, the more I think it's time for the big schools to form their own association. They just don't need the NDHSAA anymore. The majority of the people in the state understand that Fargo (3), West Fargo, Grand Forks (2), Jamestown, Bismarck (2), Mandan, Dickinson, Minot, Williston, and Belcourt are in a different league than everyone else."

Not sure if i'm feeling real good about AAA football right now though... maybe you could help me with that oh wise sage of ND high school athletics... the answer to the football problem last year already needs fixing... Why is it so hard to come up with something that can work for more then two years at a time... that ridiculous!
When Davies opens up what all of the sudden makes Williston less deserving (maybe its the fact that they save Devils Lake or another Steve34 Favorite from moving up at any time in the future)? they still would offer the same activities wouldn't they? Because a school opens (Davies) they become less "elite"?
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 4:38 pm

There are plenty of one-room schoohouse nutjobs living in big cities. You are not where you live. You are what you think. I made the reference to clear up your obviously clouded thoughts of my residence and attachment to any particular team. I do not now, never have, or do I plan to, live(d) in Devils Lake, nor do I have friends, relatives, or other bonds to people there to solely back their position on any class makeup. I realize there's no way to absolutely verify this, but I'll believe your economics prowess if you believe my residential status.

Okay, I'll abstain from the personal attacks. I am in a position where I get to talk to a lot of high school football coaches, in every class. So I am quite sure you're not understanding the issue when you make the statement that "last year's fix already needs fixing" stuff. I mean this in no personal attack against you, but I simply will not take the time to give you the information I have because I do not think you are entering this issue with an open mind. I tried to give an example of mine when I suggested that I can be open to a 14 team class. You decided to trash me, instead of reciprocate.

When you're actually ready to hear the whole story about where we arrived at with this past year, drop me a line, and I'll give you what I know.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NDplayin » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:00 pm

steve34 wrote:I don't have credibility? You just took posts from a basketball thread and used them on a football thread. But I'm glad that you did, because my "lack of credibility" demonstrates your own.

Steven, Steven, Steven... actually each and every single one of those quotes was taken from the topic '2009-10 football realignment" found right here under AA Football... none of them was taken from a basketball post. Once again, nice try using misinformation to try and prove your point. What were you saying about your credibility and mine again?

steve34 wrote:Had people embraced the "Super 12" concept that I referred to, we would be out of this mess, and several others. Davies would enter, Williston would drop, and life would go on. Also, we'd finally have a system for basketball and volleyball that is much more fair and equitable. It was people like you that shot the "Super 12" idea down. But all of a sudden, 14 looks good to you, when 12 looked bad before? :roll: .

Wait a minute?? Isn't "Super 12" exactly what you are saying needs fixed in AAA football right now? How does Davies moving up, Williston moving down, and still having 12 teams fix that terrible scheduling problem you keep talking about? By the way, 14 never looked bad... it always looked better than 12... what was best was the origional plan from before this whole debauchle, the plan that wasn't broken, the plan that didn't need fixing.

steve34 wrote:The Shanley comment was valid, when the idea was proposed. Verified with administration. THAT IS WHAT HAS CHANGED, IDIOT! Stated already on this post. Just this week in the Fargo Forum, a glowing article about Shanley returning to the playoffs. They have changed their opinion, and that his what makes it a new situation. But thanks for asking what has changed, even though I have already answered that question. You may want to take a remedial reading class or get a GED. :idea:

I am very happy to hear you say that the Shanley comment was valid at the time, because here is what my remidial reading classes have taught me... If adding Davies and having Shanley moving up would have solved any future scheduling problems, why wouldn't adding Davies and moving up Devils Lake? Its the same situation, same numbers, just a different team, a team with higher enrollment. After all, the whole point of this IS to find whats best for North Dakota, not just Devils Lake, right??? And it isn't the job of the HSAA to make sure DL wins right? Just that they can compete??? Just checking.

steve34 wrote:Upon further review, scheduling is a problem. The math part is not, but the feel is. The coaches have changed their opinion on that. ANOTHER CHANGE!!!!! They don't like playing half of a season of non-conference games.

Here we go again with the same old stuff, different day Steve. Last year 12 teams decided they wanted something different for scheduling reasons, so we fixed a system that wasn't broken and affected 100 other teams to accomodate 12. Now those 12, on a whim, have decided their brilliant idea from just a year ago already stinks because of scheduling reasons so we should start jumping around from one bad plan everyone opposed to another poorly thought out plan that everyone also opposes?? hmmmmmm.....

steve34 wrote:I still stand by the second association comment. The HSAA operates at a snail's pace because of people like you, who have never bothered to attend a game outside of your one-room school house world. If we had another association competing with them for membership, things would get done much more quickly.

Ha! I wish Steve, had the HSAA moved at a snails pace a year ago instead of rushing this new plan through. They may have thought it out more carefully and, I apologize but it bears repeating, not fixed a system that wasn't broken with a plan doomed for failure.

steve34 wrote:Oh, and by the way, I live in the Hope-Page school district. Just thought you'd like to know. That has not changed. Now, there's a life out there, just for you, waiting to be found. :idea:

Man Steve S., that must have been really tough, but look I can do it too! Im from the Willliston School Distrct. Im from the Dickinson School District. Im from the Jamestown School District. Whew Im exhausted! Now at least two of those have to be lies and maybe all three!

Steve, you were wrong last year when you were insisting that this current plan was the answer to all our woes. You are wrong this year when you say that the 10 team plan is the answer to all our woes. Your selfish Devils Lake plan has been smelled out and it stinks. Resort to unprofessionalism and "one room school house" insults all you want... you can't cover up the smell.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:21 pm

My two cents:

Steve, I just wanted you to step forward and admit that last year your magic number was 12 and now it's 10. There may be a perfectly reasonable way to explain that (Maybe you feel that 16 is bad, 12 is better, and 10 is best). Let's just own up to our own words.

I like 12 or 14 or 16 better than 10. I have two main concerns with the 10 team AAA:

1) I struggle with the thought that only 10 teams are competing for one trophy, especially when we'll have 13 truly large high schools in our state. If we have to go to that extreme to preserve a 4 class football system, maybe we're better with only 3 football classes.

2) I struggle with the thought that Jamestown and Carrington (for example) are in the same class. Those communities and their high schools look very different. Think of all the activities JHS offers that Carrington does not. This is a concept that we have already talked about and I thought you'd agree.
In my mind, Jamestown's competitive advantage over Carrington on a football field would be much larger than West Fargo's advantage over Jamestown.

I'm trying to return this to a civil debate, but that might be tough. The personal attacks have been flying in all directions.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:53 pm

I'm glad all of those quotes were from this thread, seeing as how most of those quotes were dated November, 2008 and this is thread was created in 2009.

How are those remedial reading lessons working out? May need to take a few more.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NDplayin » Thu Nov 05, 2009 12:56 am

steve34 wrote:I'm glad all of those quotes were from this thread, seeing as how most of those quotes were dated November, 2008 and this is thread was created in 2009.

How are those remedial reading lessons working out? May need to take a few more.


Again Steve, Really? It looks like it must be time for me to quit quoting you and start quoting myself. First of all, when I was quoting all those things you said, I did identify the exact date you published them, and indeed they were all November 2008. Not only did I identify the correct dates, but I continuely asked you "What changed in the last year?"

Now you come back here with this weak stuff about me saying those quotes were from this thread??? Try this on for size Steve.
NDPlayin wrote:Steven, Steven, Steven... actually each and every single one of those quotes was taken from the topic '2009-10 football realignment" found right here under AA Football... none of them was taken from a basketball post.


Now let's see if I can pass the final for my remedial reading classes Steve... This thread is called "Realignment talk: Here we go" as you should know as you created it. Above, I said that I took those quotes from the thread called "2009-10 football realignment". Now correct me if I am wrong Mr. Superintendent, but in the world of reading comprehension doesn't that mean that I, myself, indicated they came from different threads? Yes I did. Did I myself care, no I did not, nor did anyone else because it proved that in less than a full year you seemed to have turned 180 degrees in your opinions only because your one individual school's circumstances have changed.

Tell you what Steven S., if you want the name and number of my remedial reading instructor, why don't you drop me a line. Maybe then you can correctly identify the name of a thread. Until then why don't you try argueing your point rather than spreading misinformation.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:05 am

Um.....I'm sorry, but I have no intention of "argueing" my viewpoint, seeing as how I have been "arguing" my point the entire time.

Fire your instructor. You didn't learn anything.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby NDplayin » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:28 am

Really, I guess my remedial reading instructor forgot to teach me that dishonesty, double-talk, denial, misinformation, and personal attacks were all parts of a sound arguement. I knew I shouldn't have skipped class last week.

Come back with something stronger Steven, these feeble attempts of yours are starting to bore.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Stromer » Thu Nov 05, 2009 11:55 am

NDplayin wrote:Really, I guess my remedial reading instructor forgot to teach me that dishonesty, double-talk, denial, misinformation, and personal attacks were all parts of a sound arguement. I knew I shouldn't have skipped class last week.

Come back with something stronger Steven, these feeble attempts of yours are starting to bore.


Seriously, I think Steve is coming from left field. And your post showing his double talk was useful. However, you did pull some posts from another thread. And then denied it when he asked you about it. There is no denying that. So can we please get this thread back on track, which was discussing one of the most redic plans in recent memory.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Hinsa » Thu Nov 05, 2009 1:56 pm

We've let this banter between Steve and others go long enough. If you wish to banter further, take it to PMs.

Back to the topic....
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby football101 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:00 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:I think your numbers are off just a bit (the NDHSAA football plan lists male enrollment around 300 for Devils Lake, so the student body must be close to 600.)

You make a lot of good points though. I understand, DLHS would be the smallest AAA school by quite a margin, and they are a big school for AA. The size of their school and town is unique in North Dakota. It's tough to figure out what to do with them.

I agree that they'd struggle in AAA and would not dominate AA. I just don't think that the solution is shrinking AAA to ten teams and bumping Jamestown, Williston, and Dickinson down.


I didn't know they used grades 7-12.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Coach Rerick » Thu Nov 05, 2009 3:26 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:My two cents:

Steve, I just wanted you to step forward and admit that last year your magic number was 12 and now it's 10. There may be a perfectly reasonable way to explain that (Maybe you feel that 16 is bad, 12 is better, and 10 is best). Let's just own up to our own words.

I like 12 or 14 or 16 better than 10. I have two main concerns with the 10 team AAA:

1) I struggle with the thought that only 10 teams are competing for one trophy, especially when we'll have 13 truly large high schools in our state. If we have to go to that extreme to preserve a 4 class football system, maybe we're better with only 3 football classes.

2) I struggle with the thought that Jamestown and Carrington (for example) are in the same class. Those communities and their high schools look very different. Think of all the activities JHS offers that Carrington does not. This is a concept that we have already talked about and I thought you'd agree.
In my mind, Jamestown's competitive advantage over Carrington on a football field would be much larger than West Fargo's advantage over Jamestown.

I'm trying to return this to a civil debate, but that might be tough. The personal attacks have been flying in all directions.


Bisonguy - I'll discuss in a civil manner with you...unless we're excluded from this conversation for not insulting each other...in which case, I'll just mention that my grad degree is from UND.

At any rate, I understand your concern with #1. But, honestly, who else could compete with those other schools for any trophy? If Minot, and West Fargo, and GFC can't compete with Bismarck and South for that football crown, then adding more schools won't change anything. Football has to be viewed differently than any other sport because of the sheer number of players involved. Smaller schools can compete with bigger schools in basketball for the two years they catch their wave of talent; this just isn't the case with football. Does watching only 10 teams battle out a championship seem silly? Probably, but I think it's a necessary evil in North Dakota.

In reply to #2 - That happens at all levels (divisions? classes? what are we calling them now?). There is a pretty big difference between Jamestown and Carrington, but there's a pretty big difference between Hazen and Killdeer too...just like there's a big difference between the biggest and smallest schools in any division. I know what you're saying, though. The AA has a tough job, but they need to make those division lines somewhere. The smallest schools in any (every) division will always be able to gripe about the size of the biggest schools. Unfortunately, someone has to be the smallest...unless we're ready for 24 divisions of football in ND.

My favorite part about reading these "discussions" is how quickly some are willing to point out the idiocy of other people's decisions without being able to handle the criticism towards their own. The NDHSAA has an extremely tough job. They are trying to find competitive equality for everyone from Minot High (enrollment 1940) to Strasburg-Zeeland (enrollment 72) and everybody inbetween (and smaller!). I'm glad it's not my job to spend two years coming up with what I consider to be the best idea possible knowing full well it's going to be hollered about from somewhere.
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Nov 05, 2009 5:17 pm

Coach,

Thanks for a civil reply.
The NDHSAA has a tough job, amen to that. They'll never please everyone.

I didn't agree with shrinking AAA from 16 to 12, but I could understand it. Wahpeton, Shanley, St. Mary's, and Belcourt were marginal AAA schools. Belcourt dropped and played an independent schedule and that forced the NDHSAA to do something. I can live with that.

Shrinking to 10, when we're adding Davies, is a BIG step. You're forcing three schools down that have always been among the big boys and have been competitive on and off. Williston was a semifinalist recently. Dickinson returned to the playoffs after a down year last year, and I just don't know much about Jamestown, but they are the biggest of the three. I just don't think that these three schools are doomed to defeat in AAA. In a good year, they can give the Bismarck and Fargo schools a run. In my mind, adding Davies gives us a chance to make a bigger, healthier AAA with 12, 14, or 16 teams.

I am aware that one of the three definitely does not want to move down, and I can't speak for the other two. Will they be allowed to opt up? Who knows...

The uproar on this board stems from the perception that Devils Lake is only looking out for Devils Lake. They drafted the plan and they seem to be the biggest beneficiary. Thanks for speaking up and representing a different point of view from a different part of the state.
Bisonguy06
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Coach Rerick » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:39 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:
The uproar on this board stems from the perception that Devils Lake is only looking out for Devils Lake. They drafted the plan and they seem to be the biggest beneficiary. Thanks for speaking up and representing a different point of view from a different part of the state.


This last part of your post states exactly what the problem is with any proposal from a school. All schools will put together something that they feel is best for their district. Every two years we get bombarded by suggestions from around the state for the new regional alignments. Everyone just needs to understand that the nature of the population in North Dakota makes it difficult to create consistent parity across the state. Valley City is a great example of this. When they were a Class A school, they were upset because they don't have the same numbers to choose from to compete with South, North, etc. Now that they're Class B (I mean, in the B Division - sorry NDHSAA), it's the Edgeley sized schools that say the same thing. So people start chirping about how we need four divisions to make everything equal. I guarantee that the very second ND went to a four division system, someone would start complaining about the lack of teams in their area, and the travel, etc. And, sooner or later, a smaller school in one division would point at a big school and talk about their lack of competitiveness...and round and round it goes.

I've been fortunate enough be have been on both sides of this issue. We were a tiny division A football team for a few years before becoming a bigger school in the 9 man division. In fact, had a couple schools not opted up last time, we'd have been playing A again this year. I chose to stay in 9 man because I think that's the best fit for my team and my school, but had the numbers come out saying we're back in division A, so be it.

I enjoy having this conversation with other people who understand the difficulty in making all of this "work". It's much more difficult than most people realize; you can't just sit down with a map and put every school where you think they belong. I most appreciate the schools who propose a plan and accept some feedback about it. For instance, no matter what division we're put in, for football or basketball or otherwise, we're never going to have to travel very far to fill our schedule. In fact, our kids think a 90 mile bus ride is the worst possible thing they could imagine. It's tough for me to look at a plan and know how the schools out west will think about the travel. Thankfully, the AA is made up of people from across the state with advisors from various sized schools across the state for input.

I'll get out of your message board now and go back where I belong!
Coach Rerick
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:39 am

Amen. People will complain about everything. We learn that in education all the time.

The ten team AAA looks great from a Devils Lake perspective, but not as good in other parts of the state. People got a little carried away with attacking or defending the plan, that's all. The NDHSAA is balanced and they will have to examine it from all angles.

I do think that opt-ups should be allowed in any plan at any level. Killdeer opts up. Harvey opts up. If Williston, Jamestown, and Dickinson get placed in AA, they should be able to opt back up to AAA if that is where they want to play.
Bisonguy06
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby steve34 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:13 pm

After reading all of what this thread has to offer, some thoughts:

How do we handle the AAA picture?

Do we have 10 teams that look like each other? Answer: Yes. I think there's little question that South, North, West Fargo, Davies, Red River, Central, Bismarck, Century, Minot, and Mandan are right for each other.

Do we have 12 teams that look like each other? Answer: Probably yes. It seems that Jamestown and Dickinson, the next two largest, are still in line with the top class. I got greedy, thinking about how the addition of these teams could make AA better. In the end, I think those that spoke in favor of keeping these schools up in football are correct.

Do we have 14 teams that look like each other? Answer: Probably not. Williston is the next largest. I'm not as familiar with them as I am with the other schools. The thread says they fit. Even if we operate on the basis of them fitting, Devils Lake is next, and they have demonstrated they are a much better fit with AA than with AAA. They were hardly competitive when they were top-side, and they haven't dominated the AA field since being down.

Do we have 16 teams that look like each other? Answer: No. Belcourt and Wahpeton are in the right class right now. The future numbers at Wahpeton will have them a solid AA member as of next year.

So, it seems the state has to choose from three options:

1. Operate with a 12 team class and move Williston down, which would move Trinity to A (since they have indicated they will no longer opt up after this cycle). Under this plan, the divisions would be as follows:

Region I--Wahpeton, Shanley, Central Cass, Oak Grove, Lisbon, Grafton, Valley City, Kindred
Region II--Williston, Minot Ryan, St. Marys, Bottineau, Belcourt, Devils Lake, Carrington, Beulah

2. Operate with a 14 team class and move Devils Lake up. Makeup:

EDC--South, North, Davies, RR, Central, West Fargo, Devils Lake,
WDA--Jamestown, Bismarck, Century, Mandan, Minot, Dickinson, Williston.

3. Operate with a 12 team class, but allow a team to opt up and bring Williston back. In this case:

EDC--If Shanley opts up, scratch Devils Lake. WDA stays as above.
WDA--If St. Mary's opts up, scratch Devils Lake from the EDC, and leave Jamestown in the east. St. Mary's takes Jamestown's spot.

I guess, if someone opts up, option three is the absolute best. If no one opts up, as I see it, it comes down to this: Do we want a system with one team in the AA class that everyone struggles to beat (Williston), or do we want a system with one team in AAA that can't beat any of the others (Devils Lake). Again, I'm not from Devils Lake, nor do I care about them. But it seems one big dog that 15 other schools can take a shot at is better than orphaning a team in AAA that will never be competitive.
steve34
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Re: Realignment talk: Here we go

Postby Bisonguy06 » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:15 pm

That is all very reasonable.

I cannot separate Williston from Dickinson and Jamestown. There is a natural rivalry between WHS and DHS and those two schools are too similar in size to be split up.

That is why I am inclined to say we will have 13 big schools with Davies and we need to find that 14th.
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