Realignment talk: Here we go

[classB4ever]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wonder why anybody would ever spend a dollar on any televised boxing and/or UFC Pay per View event, when you can come on here and read for free.

[NorthDakota11]

FACT: The maximum difference between Williston and the bottom of the AA class is 300. The maximum difference between Williston and the top is over 600. There will be way more athletes in the 600 than there are in the 300.

By your logic Steve there are only about 5 teams in the state that should be AAA... Minot, Bismarck High, Century, West Fargo, and Fargo South soon to be South/Davies... these five schools are far and away bigger then everyone else... on average around 350-400 students bigger then anyone else in their class... should we just go with a five team AAA? The point was already made by Bisonguy...

I'm not done, and I have some math for you:

Williston has roughly 400 boys. The majority of the schools in AAA football are no more than 1.5 times as big as Williston.

Dickinson (426), Jamestown (451), Grand Forks Central (583), Mandan (591), Grand Forks Red River (600), and Fargo South (roughly 550 after the split) and Davies (550) are all just 1.5 times the size of Williston. Fargo North is just above that threshold (currently 615).

I've listed EIGHT of the other twelve AAA schools here! You're telling me that Williston can't compete with this group?

now for this tidbit...

FACT: Every AA team can currently compete with every AA team, as referenced ON THE FIELD..

Every AAA team can currently compete with every AAA team, as referenced by Bisonguy when he pointed out that Williston was a semi-finalist just two years ago!!!

You mentioned Watford and Lisbon a few posts ago... if it weren't for Trinity "maning up" and opting up (which I believe they should continue to do for what I will admit are selfish reasons), Watford would have been in AA so thats a moot point...

So you can throw me into that "small school apologists" group too but I think you probably knew that when you saw I had posted again.

[steve34]

Again, you take a couple of things OUT OF CONTEXT and make your point.

I would love to argue this out, in a mock fashion, in front of a judge. A side that presents evidence collected over the 13 years we've had four classes, versus some hypotheticals. I'd win walking away.

Keep taking one statement from my posts and ripping it up. It doesn't make me mad. It just gives me another opportunity to highlight the lack of evidence in your next post.

[Bisonguy06]

Whatever our differences are, I thought we could do this without a Hitler reference. I guess I was wrong...

ND11, I was about to write up a long, ridiculous proposal for a 4 team AAA. Thanks for saving me the time. I'll be brief: The largest natural gap between schools (when we add Davies) will be 172 boys. That's the gap between Century and Fargo North. AAA could consist of Minot, Bismarck, Century, and West Fargo, and they could all play each other three times in the regular season.

Steven, you rightly pointed out that all the AA teams are within 300 boys of Williston, and not all of the AAA teams are within the same range. You make that sound so simple. But if you're a Lisbon with an enrollment of only 112 boys to begin with, Williston is almost four times the size of your school!

I don't buy raw numbers. Add 300 more boys to Minot High, and the product on their field won't change drastically. If you add 300 more boys to Center-Stanton, their entire football lineup changes. Raw numbers don't work. But you've already lost the raw numbers game (see my example on the range of schools within 200 boys of Williston).

Percentages and ratios work better. Those numbers have already been provided to you, and you've lost that game, too.

[steve34]

Raw numbers don't work. Percentages and ratios don't work. That's why we have GROUPS. Those groups have been spectacular for North Dakota football, as evidenced by the last 13 years of the sport.

I've lost nothing. The state is doing it right with groups as classifications, and if 12 is the group, it's not 13. You're the one touting raw numbers and ratios. You've lost that game. I didn't beat you. 13 years of great football did.

[Bisonguy06]

Percentages, ratios, and raw numbers don't work (to you) because they don't help your case.

And groups change. Just ask the NDHSAA. AAA was 16. It's 12 now. Why can't it be 13? Because it's an odd number? Because it's an unlucky number?

[ndlionsfan]

I don't know about the rest of you, but I wonder why anybody would ever spend a dollar on any televised boxing and/or UFC Pay per View event, when you can come on here and read for free.

I agree! You 3-4 have gone round and round in circles about this for the last month. Steve34, you're never going to convince the other 2-3 you're right and vice versa. It's in the NDHSAA board members and member schools hands. If you really think your plan is superior just express your thoughts to them somehow. We really aren't getting anywhere on here anymore, just spinning the wheels really.

[steve34]

So what if we are Lionsfan? Are you planning on locking this thread because we're at a standoff?

That's what I don't get about this message board. I know Playin and Bisonguy are never coming to my side. That's not the point. This board gives them, and me, the opportunity to vocalize our points to the audience, so the audience can struggle to their own opinion.

Lionsfan, did you really expect that, in the last presidential election, Obama or McCain would one day just say, "Oh. I get it. You're right," and bow out? They spun their wheels for nearly two years. In the end, a decision was made. That's the process.

Playin and Bisonguy ripping my opinion and me ripping theirs is a GOOD thing. The debate is necessary! All you moderators worry about is making sure everyone gets along and has the same opinion. Every time some sharp opinions get expressed here, you lock the darn thread or tell us to go away. I guess you don't stand for the one thing a message board is established for: the exchange of ideas. Sorry, but ideas are not always exchanged in a cordial way.

For the record, I'm sure Playin and Bisonguy are fine, upstanding people. The fact that I accuse them of being "small-school apologists" and whatever doesn't mean I think they're bad people. I think they craft their ideas with a bias, but that doesn't mean they are not fair and just people. I'll admit I craft my ideas with a bias. My bias comes from the fact that I think too many decisions on such things are made with the smallest schools in mind, at the expense of larger schools. I'm the guy lobbying on behalf of the larger ones. But that doesn't mean I'm a bad person, that I beat up old ladies, refuse to wear my seat belt, smoke crack, or molest kids. And I would never accuse Playin and Bisonguy of any of that.

Quite the opposite. I suspect they are individuals with great regard for the welfare of kids. After all, they keep coming back here to defend their priniciples, which mean they care about the process. More people should be like them, and us, not less.

Sorry Lionsfan. I hotly disagree with the opinions put forth by Playin and Bisonguy, but your post was the worst of the thread.

[Bisonguy06]

Well done Steve. As long as we avoid personal attacks, this debate is a good thing and people are learning from this.

And Lionsfan, believe it or not, people at member schools are aware of the things that are said on preps, and NDHSAA board members are aware, too. This debate isn't happening in a vacuum. It has an audience and it sparks a dialogue in other parts of the state.

[ndlionsfan]

Wow, you are edgy steve. Did I ever even hint about locking this thread? Did I say you had to get along with everyone and have the same opinion? I have read every single post of this topic since day 1. It started out that you guys were all giving good input to the different plans and ideas/opinions were evolving from information stated. Now you are set in your ways and have been basically posting the same argument over and over. It's really not debate because you aren't going anywhere with it. I'm sure you'll rip me about that because you were in debate back in the day. My only point I was trying to make is discussing it on here is great for sharing ideas and opinions, but its really not going to matter when it comes down to it. You have to talk to school officials and NDHSAA board members and try to convince them what you think is best for football in ND. Hey, if you want to keep restating your opinion for the next 6 months go for it...I'll keep reading. It would just be nice to get another couple opinions in here to make the reading more interesting, but obivously you and Bisonfan and NDplayin are the ones that care enough about your ideas to keep voicing them.

[Bisonguy06]

Steve, I returned to the debate because I can't just be content with a 12 team AAA and Williston opting up to be the 13th.

Even though the result of that is 13 teams in AAA, the plan starts with the notion that Williston is a AA school and I cannot agree with that. We've crunched all the numbers in the world. In AA, Williston would have at least 193 more boys than every school except Devils Lake. The average AA team doesn't even have 193 boys in its high school, and yet that's the margin between Williston and almost every team in AA. In most cases, the margin is nearly 250 boys.

I don't know how to put it more simply than that.

Williston is a big school, a AAA school. It always has been. It's not on the decline. They've always been a top-tier school in everything. Fargo will split into a third high school, which will keep them from running away from Williston in enrollment and athletic competition. West Fargo and Bismarck are headed for another high school, too. Another split.

I don't follow any of your arguments, other than the idea that 12 is a much more convenient number than 13. We gave you that point 200 posts ago. Do you have anything else?

[NDplayin]

Steve, please inform me how I, or anyone, took your quote out of context. Just because only a portion of a post was quoted doesn't automatically mean it was taken out of context. You are correct, I did choose to quote only a small portion of your entire post... we both have long posts... I don't feel the need to clutter this board with full, multi-point quotes. I was choosing to refer to your particular point about finding "substantial athletes" in a school the size of Williston compared to Minot or to Lisbon.... I listed some very "substantial athletes", including a blue chipper, from Williston's 2008 team. If I took a point out of context, please explain how and I will try to correct it.

On the very subject of "substantial athletes", I would appreciate it if you would answer a couple questions for me. First, what constitutes a "substantial athlete"? Considering the context, I assume that by “substantial” you are referring to athletes able to contribute to a competitive AAA team, is that correct? Second, in your opinion, is 1 out of every 10 boys a substantial athlete? 1 out of every 20? 30? 40? 100? What's the average to expect there?

You love to pretend that you have a monopoly on facts and that everyone else operates in a hypothetical world. Here is a fact for you, as of right now, Williston playing AA is a hypothetical situation. It has never happened, so neither you nor any of us know what would ‘factually’ happen if it did. The only thing available to any of us when it comes to Williston playing AA is theory, we can back those theories up with facts… they are still theories. Example: your fact that Wahpeton and Shanley didn’t destroy AA can only be used to support your theory that Williston wouldn’t, and if I might say so, support it very poorly considering the enrollment difference among those schools.

None-the-less, here are some facts in response to your facts… please tell me if I take anything out of context Steven.

So, what argument will I depend on:

FACT: Every AA team can currently compete with every AA team, as referenced ON THE FIELD.

FACT: Williston was not one of those AA teams competing with every other AA team this year.

FACT: Every AAA team can currently compete with every AAA team, as referenced ON THE FIELD. (Williston semi-finalist 2008).

FACT: No team in AAA this year was any less competitive than Grafton, Kindred, Belcourt, and Bottineau were in AA this year.

FACT: This continued even after Wahpeton, a team with RECENT PLAYOFF SUCCESS AT AAA, moved down.

FACT: Williston was more successful in AAA in 2008 than Wahpeton was. (evidence on the field)

FACT: Williston has double the enrollment of Wahpeton

FACT: The enrollment difference between Williston and Wahpeton is over seven times larger than the enrollment difference between Williston and Dickinson High

FACT: The enrollment difference between Williston and Devils Lake is over three times the size of the enrollmnt difference between Williston and Dickinson High.

FACT: The maximum difference between Williston and the bottom of the AA class is 300. The maximum difference between Williston and the top is over 600. There will be way more athletes in the 600 than there are in the 300.

If you are brave enough to answer my questions above we will talk about this “Fact” then.

Now some opinions

FACT: North Dakota football has enjoyed a growth in overall success, from the fan base, to the competitive level of play, since adopting the four-class system that established GROUPS OF TEAMS as classification, not enrollments.

I agree that 4 classes is best for North Dakota football. No one is trying to change four classes. People like 4 classes because there are 4 classes, not because those classes are split into even numbers. The argument is whether or not 4 classes split by enrollment would or wouldn’t be better than 4 classes split by predetermined numbers…. You have NO facts about that.

FACT: 12 is 12, it is not 13. If the top group is 12, Williston is 13, and should be moved to AA

Sweet fact dude. 12 is 12. 13 is also 13. 14 is 14. 15 is 15. 16 is 16. 12,458,972 IS 12,458,972.
If the number is 12 than Williston is 13…. Cool…. So what the heck does that have to do with whether or not the number actually should be 12??? What does this have to do with a predetermined numbers versus enrollment argument?

FACT: The system has allowed for opt-ups at other levels, and it is not fair to deny someone a chance to opt up. Should Williston choose to opt up, they should be allowed to do so.

I agree that if this system was used that any team should have the opportunity to opt up anywhere… How does that prove that this system is the more fair system??? Every other system proposed and discussed on here has allowed for opt-ups at all levels. So what’s your point?

FACT: This arrangement allows Williston to make the decision.

Again what’s your point? How does this prove that your arrangement would be the best arrangement? It doesn’t.

You can stand by your arguments of hypotheticals. I'll stand by the FACTS.

I will stand by both the facts and the hypotheticals, as well as common sense and especially the playing field evidence of both AA and AAA the last two years, Thank you.

[Bisonguy06]

I've lost nothing. The state is doing it right with groups as classifications, and if 12 is the group, it's not 13. You're the one touting raw numbers and ratios. You've lost that game. I didn't beat you. 13 years of great football did.

13 years of great football beat me? Beat my argument? What does that even mean?

I agree that we've had 13 years of great football. And for all 13, Williston has competed at the AAA level. Adding Davies does NOTHING to affect the quality of football in Williston. There is no reason to bump them off the AAA island.

[eagle101]

Based on recent NDHSAA decisions

the numbers will be for teams when they realign:
14 - AAA
16 - AA
32 - A
The rest 9-man

1. This grouping will come out sometime in the next few months and where schools will align.
2. The NDHSAA will then give schools a chance for input.
3. Regardless of the input from schools, the NDHSAA will stick with their decision on the number of teams in each division stated above.
4. Teams will then elect to move up if desired in spring of 2010
5. Teams will then be reassigned according to teams that move up.
6. Fall of 2010 will then be done.

[Bisonguy06]

This is very interesting Eagle... are you at liberty to reveal where you are getting this information?

[NDplayin]

Eagle101, Correct me if you know something I don't, but I think you are wrong. I believe the football plan is re-evaluated every two years and 2010 is the second year of the current plan. I don't think anything will or can change until 2011.

[ndlionsfan]

I'll post my opinion on what I think the football plan should look like.....give you guys a little ammo to fire back at me.

Keep 3A just how it is and add Davies in for a 13th team. Each of these schools is very similar and there hasn't been a problem with competition. Also allows for expansion if new schools open in Bismarck, WF, or even Minot. Williston and Dickinson will probably grow in the near future anyway with all the energy expansion out west creating new jobs.

Expand 2A to 19-20 teams. Bump up MayPort, Rugby, Watford, and Hazen. 20 would be ideal, but Trinity is the wildcard here. If you look at all the teams, none of these teams really depend on a co-op for their enrollment. With Trinity's success and location in a large city, I think they can play in 2A. Two regions of 10 teams. I did not put Park River up here even tho their current enrollment is more than most of the teams I bumped up, but they rely on Ford/Lank and Edinburg for enrollment and Edinburg is consolidating with Valley and I'm guessing that co-op is done which lowers PR enrollment.

1A goes down to 28 teams....4 regions of 7. All of these schools are already similar and there are good rivalries in place already. I know some teams have requested up that might not in the future, but if you look at it Harvey will probably co-op with Wells very soon and Velva with Drake/anamoose since their co-op is falling apart. I think Stanley and Killdeer belong here because of rivlaries and travel.

9man - stays as is. Like I just said some of these teams will co-op with someone in the very near future. D/A will be gone, Wells will soon have to co-op, don't know how much longer Stras/Zee can hang on as well as Center/Stan. 9man will have about 40 teams in the next couple years. 4 regions of 10.

Now here's the kicker....no school gets to opt up. You play where you are put, plain and simple. And each plan is good for 5 years before it gets looked at again for a change. I'm tired of this 2 year crap where teams are getting moved to new divisions or new regions all the time.....especially 11man to 9man and vice versa. Allow rivlaries to be made, that's what makes HS FB great!

[Indy5]

Ndlionsfan, I love your idea. I think its a good idea to expand AA.

Not sure if the big three will respond to my post or not since I'm not one of them but, I ask if anyone can answer my question.

Wasn't the whole point of building Davies and spliting South in two suppose to level out the playing field in AAA ( and A for every other sport)? If this is so, why are we trying to get rid of Williston? Yes, they are one of the smallest schools, but shouldn't they be the ones to benefit from the split of South not be exhiled from the group?

[eagle101]

Eagle101, Correct me if you know something I don't, but I think you are wrong. I believe the football plan is re-evaluated every two years and 2010 is the second year of the current plan. I don't think anything will or can change until 2011.

Sorry if I wasn't more detailed.

In the fall of 2010 it has to be said and done so all the teams can scheudle for the 2011 season.

[Bisonguy06]

Indy5:

We really get wrapped up in sports here... but the purpose of Fargo Davies is to provide a better education for the high school students of Fargo, North Dakota.

Fargo North and Fargo South and their middle schools would have issues of overcrowding, and Fargo is expanding rapidly to the south, so it makes sense to build a high school and to put it at that end of town.

Yes, it has the effect of leveling out the playing field in athletics, and yes, I agree that we should keep Williston.

And it's an honor to be considered part of "the big three," although sometimes I think I need to get a life

[NDplayin]

NDlionsfan,

I too see no problem with a larger than 16 team AA... my only question is by which means do you wish to establish it? Are you planning on picking and choosing good teams to play good teams and bad to play bad regardless of enrollment? Dangerous and ever changing. Should we establish a larger AAA but setting a number like 20 and taking the 20 highest enrollments after AAA? Is there an enrollment cutoff limit for your idea? Do you have a diferent tactic for expanding AA not yet discussed here? If so, love to hear it...


Thanks for the clarification Eagle.

[ndlionsfan]

I didn't really change the AA from its current format, just added a few teams that have similar enrollments. Right now the smallest team in AA is Trinity, but they are basically the only team that relies on a co-op to keep them at an enrollment at the AA level of 108 (82 DT and 26 NE). I don't know how many kids they get from NE, tho. What I'm saying is I don't know if their enrollment figure equates to an equal amount of players with other towns that have the same enrollment but don't rely on a co-op. Kind of understand what I'm trying to say? After that, the next lowest is Lisbon 112 and Kindred 114. I'm saying to move WC 110, Rugby 109, Hazen 103, and MPCG 101 up because all of these towns are similar in enrollment to other AA teams and don't rely on a co-op. I didn't move GBC up even tho their enrollment is more than hazen and MPCG because it is 3 schools (and actually about 8 different towns) that make up that co-op and their participation numbers are probably hurt by that. I also didn't move Park River up because of the same reason that it's 3 schools to form that co-op and with Edinburg consolidating with Valley they are probably going to lose them and their enrollment will drop them down on par with other A schools. This way AA would be made up of all teams with very similar enrollments that don't rely on co-ops to help form a team (besides Trinity and Oak Grove) which makes it difficult. Do you make it an even 20 team AA and keep Trinity up or do you go with 19 because their really isn't another team that's similar or do you even go down to 18 and bump MPCG back down to A. All that is up for discussion.

[steve34]

First, Bisonguy, you're right. We don't build high schools to field more teams. I have no clue where that came from, but whatev.

Lionsfan, you're seriously going to pick and choose your teams? You're going to leave some down even though the numbers say they should be up? The fact that Playin hasn't jumped on you for it is amazing.

First, you leaving GBC down in your expansion of AA is the same as moving Williston down. There is no difference. You can't have it both ways. If you're a fan of making Williston play up, and you expand AA, and GBC fits in the AA mold, you can't leave 'em down just because they co-op.

Second, and really first, no one makes a 13 team class. The idea is rediculous. You're basically telling the whole state that you're just out to screw Williston. Round numbers people understand, but 13 basically tells the whole state what you're about.

I like the idea of expanding AA, but not at the expense of compromising the whole system. If you expand AA, then the numbers are the numbers. If you take the AA level to 20 teams, then it's the next 20 after the top, well, 13, in your system. In all reality, it should be 12.

But I will call you out on that plan, as much as I like it. You're basically forcing more schools to play up, which only protects the small schools. You are officially a small-school apologist. All you really did was keep them from playing Williston, but your intent is to just make it easier for small A teams to win titles.

[Bisonguy06]

Second, and really first, no one makes a 13 team class. The idea is rediculous. You're basically telling the whole state that you're just out to screw Williston. Round numbers people understand, but 13 basically tells the whole state what you're about.

No one makes an odd-numbered class, eh?

North Dakota Class A American Legion Baseball recently decided to play as an 11 team division instead of 12. 11 is an odd number. 12 is more convenient. Somehow, they made it work.

Steve, ND legion baseball did not do this to screw over the 11th team (which happens to be Wahpeton). Their intentions were exactly the opposite - they did it to bail out Valley City, who had struggled in A baseball for over a decade.

If we have 13 big schools for football, the class should consist of 13. I'm willing to "bail out" Devils Lake as the 14th team. I want Williston to play where they belong. Let's talk about how we could make 13 work.

[ndlionsfan]

Steve, I used a lot of your same arguments for building my 4 class system. I grouped teams/towns that are similar in nature and belong together. The whole time you've been arguing this I do not see Williston belonging in AA. They have competed just fine in AAA and they're enrollment is comparable enough to the other teams in that division. If you want to keep the figures as equal as possible in AAA, then you better get back on your push for 10 teams in that division because there is not enough of a difference between Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston to split them up.

Right now the NDHSAA has a formal for Native American schools that their enrollment counts as 60% due to low income in turn leading to lower participation. I think some formula should also be devised for schools that must co-op. Right now GBC has an enrollment of 106, but are they truly comparable with Rugby, Watford, Hazen, etc? Not even close!! They are drawing students from 4 different school systems (Midkota, BCN, NC, and GCC) and a total of 10 towns! I really can't imagine the 18 students from Midkota actually factors into a big increase of players just because of the distance they have to travel for practice. Do they belong in a division with those other towns I mentioned that have the same number of students without a co-op equaling better participation numbers? I really don't think so and I can't imagine how you can twist it and make it look like they do. We're talking about creating fair playing field for our athletes, something you have mentioned many times.

Call me what you want, I'm really tired of this stupid small school apologist term you use, I am not trying to make it easier for an A team to win a title just because I moved 4 teams from that division. I don't care about A football, I have no stake in it. I have no connection with any team in ND right now, just looking at the numbers and throwing out an idea. Heck, if you'd like let's just throw A and 9man together and we can have 8 regions with 8-9 teams in each. That would be fine with me! More competition making a title that much more special. Am I a large school apologist now?