Realignment talk: Here we go

[steve34]

A correction: (and this is no fault of yours, just fyi). Valley City no longer offers gymnasics. I read on a website somewhere (I cant remember where) that they are co-oping with Jamestown, due to lack of interest.

As far as communities that look the same, I agree that it's not a fair comparison. After all, Shanley and Oak Grove are from Fargo, which doesn't really look like any other city in AA. But, you can't use the decisions of city councils or corporations as a basis for comparing cities. The cities that contribute teams at the AA level, under this plan, with the exception of one, meet all of the following:

1. Stable permanent population bases
2. They are centers of the economic activity in their region
3. They have major fast food chains of some kind
4. They have discount store outlets of some kinds

The only community, that I know of, that misses one or more of these criteria is Casselton, since Fargo is 20 miles down the road. Still, their exploding population overcomes their lack of a discount chain.

Now, before someone starts jumping on this and saying, "Cavalier has an Alco," or "MayPort has a Pizza Hut," again, these are just the criteria for ONE element of grouping the schools together. Enrollment, school likeness, and so on, make up the others.

As far as the "Big 3" having similar offerings to the AAA schools: A quick comparison shows that Bismarck Century lists one co-op for their offerings, that being in softball. Jamestown, the largest of the "Big 3" lists seven, including football. I would rather error on the side of Jamestown being smaller than listed, than error on the side of Jamestown dropping programs they can't field on their own so they can actually be smaller.

[NDplayin]

There is one thing that we most certainly agree on. I do not like the idea of anyone dropping co-ops in order to minimize their enrollment, if it means that students are being denied opportunities. That said, I don't see that being much of a problem in the major sports like football, basketball, volleyball. I like that co-ops help provide opportunities. I don't like it when travel gets great, but I do believe there is a home to be found for any school in need. Sometimes people's politics try to get in the way which is a terrible shame, but also something the NDHSAA can't govern.

I will grant you Jamestown co-ops for more of the "obscure" sports than Bismarck Century does, but before we give that too much signifigance, I would like to examine it in a little more detail. There are two types of schools that get involved in co-ops: Need based schools, and Non-need schools. Now I apologize, I briefly looked, but couldn't find a good source of what schools Jamestown co-ps with for all those 'obscure' sports, all I could find as football. However, not only are we talking about the football plan, but the football plan doesn't in anyway change the number requirements for any other sports. What I mean is, no matter how we would change a football plan, it has absolutely no impact on Jamestown's ability to co-op for any other sports.

None-the less, we are talking about schools "looking alike." Jamestown co-ops for the obscure sports more than Century does, but many factors can contribute to this such as geography. The question is, is Jamestown a school of need in any of these co-ops? As of now, I can only speak intelligibly of football, but when Westhope (27), Newburg (13), and Glenburn (36) co-op, I would consider all three schools of need. When Jamestown (412), Medina (20), and Montpelier (19) co-op, I would consider Medina and Montpelier schools of need but Jamestown is not. That co-op is wonderful because it gives Medina and Montpelier's athletes the opportunity to compete, but it is insignificant in terms of Jamestown's ability to compete in AAA football.

Like I said, I couldn’t find the list of Jamestown’s other co-ops. Still, I am inclined to believe that with very few possible exceptions, Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston are not dependant on other schools to maintain any of their programs. Just because they take on another school doesn’t make them a school of need. I feel like Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston could continue to offer all their current activities without the help of the need based schools they so nobly choose to help.

[NorthDakota11]

WOW, you spend a few weeks away from the board to do some deer hunting and Steve and Playin go on rants... I'll be reading into next week to catch up... what i'm seeing so far is promising... looks like the 10 team AAA may have the majority against it which is nice to see.

Secondly its really nice to see Playin and Steve getting along... kind of makes me think that peace really is possible anywhere in this world!

[steve34]

Okay, first, Playin, when you reply, please list, in this order:
Your favorite professional football team
Your favorite professional baseball team
Your favorite professional basketball team
Your favorite professional hockey team
Your favorite major college (not NDSU or UND, except for hockey) teams for the same

Reason: I'm tired of guys like 11 telling me how nice it is that we "get along". We're better fighting, so lets find something to find about.

Second, for 11: You're glad a 10 team top class is not accepted. Why? Because it's just not enough teams? Please! A great point was made earlier in this thread. Would Bismarck's title have meant any more this year because there were 20 teams in that class? No one from AA would have competed with them. I'm glad you appreciate the idea of just throwing a lump against the wall to see what sticks.

Now, back to the debate.

Playin, I went ahead and called some people in Jamestown. They told me about 1/3 of their hockey team comes from Valley City, and three of their state qualifying swimmers were from there. It sounds like, in at least two cases, their programs would be in jeopardy without the co-ops.

[NDplayin]

Playin, I went ahead and called some people in Jamestown. They told me about 1/3 of their hockey team comes from Valley City, and three of their state qualifying swimmers were from there. It sounds like, in at least two cases, their programs would be in jeopardy without the co-ops.

I accept this as a valid point in this arguement; however, I don't consider it a strong enough point to change my mind for the following reasons.

The fact that 1/3 of Jamestown's hockey team comes from Valley City doesn't suprise in me in the least, after all Valley City is only a little less than 1/2 the size of Jamestown. Does having Valley City improve Jamestown's hockey program, without a doubt. Would removng Valley City mean that Jamestown could no longer offer hockey? I don't think so.

Dickinson and Williston are both smaller than Jamestown, and neither one of them has a school even near the size of Valley City co-opping for Hockey, yet they are still able to offer hockey just like all the other AAA schools do. While I competely agree that any co-ops Jamestown has with Valley City strengthen those programs, other hockey programs sustain themselves with fewer numbers than Jamestown would have if by itself. Jamestown could lose Valley City and still offer the same activities, hence I believe Jamestown more closely resembles the ten schools above it than it does the 13 schools below Williston.

[steve34]

I still feel the numbers I drew up are better. If you consider that 22 athletes is the best case scenario in football, and about 60% of students in high school are in an activity, the difference between the total number of available athletes seems much different in a difference of 1031 boys with 450, compared with 450 and 140. In the first case, the larger school has, potentially, 348 more athletes. In the second situation, its 186 athletes. The quality of athlete will be so much better with the additional extra athletes.

I think the activity of wrestling offers us a good comparison. Carrington and Jamestown wrestle each other every year, and the dual is competitive. If Carrington was substantially short of male athletes, the dual would not be competitive. After all, you need 11 guys for a football team, you need 14 for a wrestling team. Sure, you need more than 11 for a football team, but many of those guys can look the same. In wrestling, you need 14 guys that all look somewhat different.

I will agree that it's tough to visualize Jamestown playing Carrington. In my mind, it's equally difficult to see Jamestown playing Minot. The comparison just isn't there. I think we all need to revamp our thoughts of what the bigger schools in the state look like. It's not just the small schools getting smaller. The big ones are getting bigger, and outclassing some of the schools we would have thought would always be with them.

This is just a radica idea, but I thought I'd throw it out there: Why do we have to wait for big cities to build to field new teams? I remember when Dakota Prairie first got together. They formed three teams out of that school: Dakota Prairie-Tolna, Dakota Prairie McVille-Aneta, and Dakota Prairie Unity-Michigan. That was for basketball, but why not have two teams from Bismarck high, two from Century, two from Minot, two from West Fargo, and so on. Draw a line in their respective districts, and if you live on one side of the line, you play for team A, on the other, team B. It would give more athletes the chance to compete, level the playing field of the top class, and generally help everything.

[Bisonguy06]

I can't help myself. If we're going to revive the 10 team AAA nonsense, I'm back in.

Never in the history of North Dakota high school athletics have Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston been considered second-tier communities. They have always played at the highest competitive level of every high school sport that has ever been offered for a hundred years. THAT is why you're seeing resistance to the 10 team AAA. It's not just that people think 10 is too small of a number.

[steve34]

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.--Proverbs 16:18

[Bisonguy06]

"I think we all need to revamp our thoughts of what the bigger schools in the state look like. It's not just the small schools getting smaller. The big ones are getting bigger, and outclassing some of the schools we would have thought would always be with them."

Dickinson baseball, boys basketball, girls' volleyball, and gymnastics would all be offended by the notion that they are being "outclassed" by the bigs. All of these programs won MULTIPLE state championships in their sport in this decade. Williston's strongest traditional programs this decade have been baseball, boys' basketball, girls' volleyball, hockey, swimming, and boys and girls tennis. They have a few recent state championships (baseball comes to mind).

Going back a few more years, Dickinson was a track and cross country dynasty in the late 1990s and early 2000s, and DHS won the AAA football title in 1997, the first year of the four class system in football. They have been steady contenders in wrestling and girls' golf as well.

Your counter-argument will be: "Let's look ahead, not backwards." Ok, let's do that.

Williston is holding steady or growing due to the oil activity.

Dickinson is up 150 students this year and is looking at adding elementary teachers and expanding existing elementary buildings.

I can't speak for Jamestown, I'm a west guy. But Jamestown is bigger than both of these schools. There's more to North Dakota than four metro areas. We need not be so eager to shrink AAA football.

But it looks like you have God on your side, and I can't compete with that

[NDplayin]

As for your Carrington vs. Jamestown wrestling example; I do not follow wrestling very closely, so I will trust you that it is a competitive dual. However, when you are use only one example that specific; the strength of program is much more of an issue than the numbers.

Now as for your radical idea, it is indeed radical but at least the train of thought has the athlete’s interests in mind. I wouldn’t oppose those actions; however, I think that action would have to be agreed upon and mandated by those larger schools themselves rather than mandated by the NDHSAA, and here is why. If you take Minot, the two Bismarck schools, and West Fargo and force them to split into two teams, you are now forcing them to double the amount of coaches in the system without adding a single new teaching position at the school. Like-wise, you are asking them to double the number of practices to be held, without adding any extra practice facilities to the building. If those biggest schools thought they were capable of doing that I would love it if they initiated it, but I think those demands are way too much to just dump in the lap of an un-expecting school, no matter what the size.

Steve, I know you like your numbers more than mine; just like I prefer mine to yours. As for your math, I don’t like the fact that you went to a pure numbers system over the ratio based systems we have been using. Here is why: School A has 1100 students. School B has 800. School C has 225. School D has 75.

School A has 300 more students then School B. School C has 150 more students than School D. Based on the pure numbers logic, School D has twice the chance to beat C than School B does to beat A. I disagree, I think it’s more fair to ask School B to play A than it is to ask School D to play C, and ratios are the way to prove that.

Initially I was opposed to you putting a percentage on the number of students who participate because that percentage is going to change and sway according to the strength of the program- a subjective factor. However, 60% seemed like a good average number for a good average program, so I will play along with it. Here is what I see when I look at the three numbers you used (1031, 450, 140):

1031x.60= 618.6
450x.60= 270
140x.60= 84
Now let’s go to the ratios.

618.6/270= 2.29
270/84= 3.21
According to that ratio it is much more reasonable to ask 270 to play 618.6 than to ask 84 to play 270. Now let’s go a step further to the diminishing returns percentage, with the number 22 being the number of your top competitors actually going onto the field to play the other team’s top 22.

22/618.6= 3.55%
22/270= 8.46%
22/84= 26.61%
Now at first glance I am inclined to say that it is going to be much easier for the middle school to find 8.46% of their participants who are able to compete with top 3.55% of the top schools, than it is for the bottom school to find 26.61% of their participants capable of competing with the top 8.46% of the middle school. However, let’s check the ratios just to be sure.

.0846/.0355= 2.38
.2661/.0846= 3.14
Yep, the lower enrollment schools will always be at some disadvantage, but the disadvantage is significantly higher in bottom against middle than it is in middle against top. I know that you like your numbers Steve. I like the numbers that are the most reasonably fair for North- Dakota Athletes, and the math tells me plain as day that 450 against 1031 is better than 140 against 450.

[steve34]

If you can't see that there are literally hundreds of athletes that the top schools have access to that the middle schools don't, I guess we're at an impasse. We can quote all the numbers at each other we want. Common sense has to weigh in, and so does the evidence. Shanley had real trouble competing with EDC teams. Central Cass, Valley City, even Lisbon had no problems competing with Shanley. Wahpeton was competitive at the AAA level, and did not advance to a state title game at the AA level. Central Cass was competitive with them as well.

The numbers, the breaks in the numbers, the evidence PLAYED OUT ON THE FIELD suggests that the current AA teams would compete with small AAA teams. We can argue all the theory we want. The evidence is there to see.

[Bisonguy06]

Current AA teams can compete with AAA teams, that is a fact.
That same argument can be used to expand AAA.
I think if you put Shanley in AAA east and Devils Lake in AAA west this year, both would've been right in the hunt for a playoff spot this year.

Evidence: Grand Forks Red River 35, Shanley 28. Red River made the AAA playoffs and lost their first round game in a nail-biter.

Also, Dickinson beat Mandan this year and lost to Minot after leading by 2TDs at the half. Jamestown beat Grand Forks Central.

There's plenty of evidence to suggest that AAA can have 12 or more teams and it also PLAYED OUT ON THE FIELD. We can't just conveniently ignore all of that.

[Bisonguy06]

Steve, I'll state the obvious and reveal that I lived in Dickinson and that I'm still partial to Dickinson athletics.

I'd like to invite you to meet me in Dickinson on a weekend this spring under three conditions:

1) Their largest hotel/convention center is being expanded, and they have two more new motels in town. You have to stay in one of them.

2) You have to tour or work out in their 12 million dollar West River Community Center.

and 3) You have to attend a track meet in the new 15 million dollar Badlands Activity Center at DSU. Maybe I can get you into a VIP luxury suite. I'd do that for you Steve!

At the end of the weekend, I doubt you'll believe that Dickinson ND is a second-tier community that is no longer able to compete with the big boys in athletics. I don't think Dickinson wants to move down, and they should not be forced down.

P.S. No truth to the rumor that I'm applying for a job at the Dickinson Convention and Visitors Bureau.

[GBR]

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.--Proverbs 16:18

"Stupid is as stupid does" Forrest Gump

[NDplayin]

If you can’t see that playing a school with literally hundreds more athletes to choose from when you have hundreds yourself if a much better lot than playing a school with literally hundreds more athletes to choose from you have less than a hundred than I guess we are at an impasse. Steve, you were the very first person on this thread to tell someone off for talking about competitive history instead of by the numbers. Here is the quote from Tue Nov 03, 2009 6:00 PM

Numbers don't make you competitive, but no matter how you divide them, 10 teams, 12 teams, 14 teams, 16 teams, whatever, there's no other way to create a system. It would be very difficult to create a system based on "competitive history". I hear the argument a lot. Teams that are "traditionally competitive" should be classed together.

My question would then be, "Should teams that are not traditionally competitive be classed together?" If that were the case, there would be a ton of movement that would bring about waling and gnashing of teeth from many schools.

Sorry, but the numbers are the only way to do it.

So we have debated the numbers Steve, done the math. This way that way, this type of ratio that type of ratio. There is NO type of math that proves you right, none. Hit all the buttons on the calculator you want, Williston vs. Minot is more fair than Bishop Ryan vs. Williston. You can’t win the numbers game, so only 16 days after that last quote you came back with this today.

...We can quote all the numbers at each other we want. Common sense has to weigh in, and so does the evidence. Shanley had real trouble competing with EDC teams. Central Cass, Valley City, even Lisbon had no problems competing with Shanley. Wahpeton was competitive at the AAA level, and did not advance to a state title game at the AA level. Central Cass was competitive with them as well.
The numbers, the breaks in the numbers, the evidence PLAYED OUT ON THE FIELD suggests that the current AA teams would compete with small AAA teams. We can argue all the theory we want. The evidence is there to see.

All of a sudden numbers aren’t the right way to do this and you want to revert to the common sense of what was “PLAYED OUT ON THE FIELD”???? I wonder why that is. Worse than that, your points about what was played out on the field had absolutely NO common sense. First, you didn’t even mention Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston, the three teams in question… it sounded much more like an argument for why the current AA should stay together than anything else, and no one is arguing that with you. Then you point out that Shanley had real trouble in the EDC but that Wahpeton was competitive at the AAA level…. Um… Whap has 206 boys and Shanley 205, one boy away from identical. If one was competing and the other wasn’t sounds like a personal problem to me.


I really love what you did next… the good old, well if Lisbon can compete (didn’t beat) with Shanely, and Shanley can compete with Wahpeton and Devils Lake, and Wahpeton and Devils Lake can compete with Jamestown… therefore Lisbon can compete with Jamestown. So much for ignoring competitive history, I thought you were better than that Steve.

Watch this: Harvey (70) beat Hazen (103), Hazen beat Beulah (139), Beulah beat Minot Ryan (121), Minot Ryan beat Carrington (143). NOW, lets combine that with your assertion that since the Carringtons of AA competed with the Shanleys (205) and Devils Lakes (206), which means the Carringtons can obviously compete with the Jamestowns(451) , Dickinsons (426), and Willistons (400), AND combine that with Bisonguy06’s astute observation that Dickinson played competitively with Minot (1031)this year and Wham. Thanks to your very own logic, Steve, we have the smallest 11 man team in North Dakota (Harvey) playing competitively with the largest (Minot).

Steve, you INSISTED we ignore competitive history and play the numbers, so we did and you got beat. Therefore, you INSISTED we abandon the numbers and use competitive history, so we did and guess what, you got beat again. What leg are you going to try to stand on next Steve?

[cubsfan]

A correction: (and this is no fault of yours, just fyi). Valley City no longer offers gymnasics. I read on a website somewhere (I cant remember where) that they are co-oping with Jamestown, due to lack of interest.

As far as communities that look the same, I agree that it's not a fair comparison. After all, Shanley and Oak Grove are from Fargo, which doesn't really look like any other city in AA. But, you can't use the decisions of city councils or corporations as a basis for comparing cities. The cities that contribute teams at the AA level, under this plan, with the exception of one, meet all of the following:

1. Stable permanent population bases
2. They are centers of the economic activity in their region
3. They have major fast food chains of some kind
4. They have discount store outlets of some kinds

The only community, that I know of, that misses one or more of these criteria is Casselton, since Fargo is 20 miles down the road. Still, their exploding population overcomes their lack of a discount chain.

Now, before someone starts jumping on this and saying, "Cavalier has an Alco," or "MayPort has a Pizza Hut," again, these are just the criteria for ONE element of grouping the schools together. Enrollment, school likeness, and so on, make up the others.

As far as the "Big 3" having similar offerings to the AAA schools: A quick comparison shows that Bismarck Century lists one co-op for their offerings, that being in softball. Jamestown, the largest of the "Big 3" lists seven, including football. I would rather error on the side of Jamestown being smaller than listed, than error on the side of Jamestown dropping programs they can't field on their own so they can actually be smaller.

Mayville has not had a pizza hut for well over a year.

[steve34]

Playin, you're back to idiot status. You keep quoting me and twisting my words around because you have nothing to offer the debate. Anyone who has followed this thread knows that I have never even tried to suggest that Harvey can compete with Minot.

You twisted my words again when you quoted my supposed change of opinion on how to classify teams. I spoke of evidence on the field to support MY NUMBERS, not my theory. 16 days ago, we had people suggesting that a school's competitive history is enough to classify them. I spoke against that, and I have maintained that a numbers breakdown is the best way to classify teams. I then used evidence on the field to support my numbers. The fact that you're twisting my words around suggests that you can't beat my argument. Its the sign of desperation. But keep twisting my words around. I enjoy your feeble attempts to attack a system that is clearly superior to yours.

Bison06: Oh joy, our AA STATE CHAMPION can compete for a lower level playoff spot at the AAA level. Great evidence for expanding the AAA class. How did Red River finish in the post-season? Or the regular season? Every other example you have was already at the AAA level, so again, terrific evidence on expansion.

Cubs fan, sorry about the Pizza Hut reference. I don't spend much time in Mayville.

[Hinsa]

Good grief, Steve. Are you really as arrogant and egotistical as you sound?

Calling him an idiot. Signs of desperation. Can't beat my arguement. Feeble attempts. Clearly superior to yours.

Do you argue because you are passionate about this topic or do you argue just to put people down? It makes it hard to repsect your position when you are so antagonistic, even when you do a great job of backing up your positions.

[steve34]

Hinsa, I'm sorry for how it sounds, but sometimes it's time to call a spade a spade. Clearly, my arguments were twisted around for no good reason than to be made a fool of. The arguments listed above by Playin and Bison06 do nothing to either back their own positions up or further the debate.

So, either you are weighing in on their side of the debate, and joining the fray to put me down, or you are not calling out everyone fairly. So, get in line on this one. I guess you're next.

[NDplayin]

Steve, you’re back to name calling, the tell tale sign of trying to defend an argument that can't be won.

I didn't twist a single word of yours Steve, nice try. I never said that you thought Harvey could play Minot... I said that your faulty logic says that Harvey can play Minot, which it does. Just because it's fair to ask Lisbon to play Shanley, and it’s fair to ask Shanley to play Jamestown DOES NOT mean it’s fair to ask Lisbon to play Jamestown. That is Logic 101. I know 8th graders that understand that better than you apparently do. I wasn't twisting any words of yours; I was giving you a basic 8th grade logic lesson. You weren't citing evidence to support your numbers, you were citing terrible logic.

That's the thing with you Steve, predictable pattern. You support a plan but never respond to the overwhelming arguments against it. Every argument you make gets legitimately torn apart, so rather than trying to strengthen that argument you abandon it and try another, which in turn gets torn apart. You want make the claim that your system is superior? Then back it up... you can't argue the ratios and you know it. It has been proven that Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston offer more of the same activities of the bigger schools than the small. It has been proven that the communities more closely resemble the bigger than the smaller, even though I think it’s irrelevant.

It’s painfully obvious that your concern for North Dakota student-athletes ends at male enrollments in low hundreds. If a student attends a school with just barely a hundred and some his well-being is considered secondary to you. You are horrified of the thought of Williston playing Minot, but who cares who Lisbon has to play.

You can get on here to name call and claim to have the superior system until the cows come home. Doesn't make it true. No one else has the audacity to get on here and say "my way is better". Everyone else gets on here and explains why their way is better, they always prove your points wrong, you never prove their points wrong... yet you stand on an island and say "my way is better". Here, let me "twist" your words again.

Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.--Proverbs 16:18

Do everyone here and favor and quit coming back with the name calling and empty assumptions of superiority. You wanna be superior, post you facts, be prepared for people to shred them, and then defend yourself against their argument. Quit telling them they are wrong and prove to them they are wrong…. But with the battle you are fighting I don’t think you can do it.

[steve34]

It's painfully obvious that you could care less about any school with an enrollment of more than 150 boys as well. So watch out black pot. I may a be a kettle, but we're the same color.

The only thing I'm guilty of, at least, that you accuse me of, is name-calling. Sorry, I call Johns "John", Bills "Bill" and idiots "idiot".

I have backed up every argument I have made here. Here's a recap:

Numbers have to be used for classification--and I've supplied numbers
Enrollment or round numbers each have their flaws--and I've supplied examples
The NDHSAA is slow to change--and I've supplied the history

Your major argument is that small AAA's have a better chance at competing with big AAA's than small AA's have at competing with small AAA's. Your argument has been entirely based on theory, with no substance. You have supplied numbers and ratios, as I have, but I have added the piece you're missing. That piece is the history of our latest season, where every small AA had a chance to compete with last year's small AAA's, and did so:

Of the four AAA's that moved down, only two advanced past the first round, one to the finals. Shanley, Wahpeton, St. Mary's and Belcourt were all challenged throughout the season by the small AA's. Under my proposal, Carrington would be one of the smallest AA schools. They beat St. Mary's. Lisbon challenged Shanley. In all, they all played competitive games against the balance of AA competition.

The arguments against:

1. Shanley almost beat Red River, and Red River was a playoff team. Counterpoint--Shanley was the absolute best team in AA, and they lost to a first-round loser in the AAA playoffs.

2. Wahpeton was competitive at the AAA level. Counterpoint--How many wins over South, Bismarck High, Century? How many wins over the lower level teams in that league.

In addition, how did Jamestown do this year? A win over Central. Williston?

There is a natural break in the numbers after 500. A look at the enrollment chart shows this.

Bison06: Okay, since Dickinson has all this nice stuff, then Trinity better high-tail it up to AAA football and A basketball. Or do you get to pick and choose your schools that apply to your argument. Oil money looks nice in brick and mortar. Beauty is skin deep.

[Bisonguy06]

There is a better natural break in the numbers after 400. The gap between WIlliston and Devils Lake is huge (roughly 100 male students). That's where the AAA/AA line belongs.

Enjoy the 'debate.' This is going nowhere. I'm out.

(Until I change my mind and jump back in, anyway.)

[steve34]

Grand Forks Central 583, Jamestown 451. Difference=132
Williston 400, Devils Lake 311. Difference=89

Natural break at 550. The only reason I used 500 is because we do not know the final numbers from the Davies/South split yet. As of right now, the better natural break is at 550.

[Bisonguy06]

That's an interesting place to draw your line this year, considering that Jamestown beat Grand Forks Central.

Steve, we can go round and round for another month on this. I'm seeking some closure.

Jamestown, Dickinson, and Williston should not be forced down to AA if they want to continue in AAA. At the very least, can we agree on that?

[steve34]

Bison06, I think you have misunderstood the latest exchanges. I invented the enrollment cutoffs to demonstrate why just throwing out numbers is a flawed way of separating the classes.

I favor a 12 team top class over a 10 team top class. I favor a 10 team top class over a 14 team class.

My version of a perfect world:

12 teams in AAA (including Jamestown and Dickinson)

either 14 or 16 in AA (including Williston)

Williston will be allowed to opt up if they want, with no requirement of anyone else to join the class (13 total if Williston wants to opt up)

Anyone else can opt up. If they opt to AAA, no requirement of anyone else to opt up to AAA. If a team leaves the AA or A class, they are replaced by the next largest team in the next smaller class (same as we have now).

Would you agree with that, Bison06?