Carrington vs. Central Cass reffing.

[5-time state chump]

I heard that Carrington got screwed big time by the refs. Not your typical "judgement call" issue with interference, holding, catch vs. no catch, but simply not knowing the rules.

Here is what I heard...from two separate people. I'll do my best to be as accurate as I can.

Carringtong behind 9-6, very little time left in game. Cass has ball near own 40. 4th down....ball is snapped WAY over the head of [QB?] or [Punter?]. Ball rolls back near goaline, but NOT in the endzone.
Casselton player kicks ball out of back of endzone for a safety. Problem is, that apparently should be a penalty if the ball is intentionally kicked when it is not in the endzone. Carrington should have had the option to take the ball at the place of the foul (CC's goal line). Instead, there was no penalty called, so they had to take the safety.

Next, CC kicks off. Carrington somehow (long pass?) gets the ball down to CC's 5 yardline or so, and hurries up and spikes the ball. During the "spike the ball" play, CC was called for 12 men on the field. The clock should stop on a defensive penalty. There are 15 seconds on the clock. Carrington is huddled up getting their next 2 plays ready. They are breaking the huddle and going to the line of scrimmage when they realize the game clock is started already. They snap the ball with 2 seconds left and get down inside CC's 1 (one) yard line. Time runs out. They figured they'd be snapping the ball with 15 seconds as they thought the clock wouldn't move until they snapped the ball.

If that is all correct, looks like referee for that game didn't know that the clock is to stop with a defensive penalty, and that Carrington, should have had the option of having the ball 1st and goal instead of getting 2 points for the safety on the previous series.

Is this correct? Can someone clarify? The clock is supposed to stop after a defensive penalty in H.S, correct?

[ndsportsfan14]

The reffing was terrible at this game i dont think Carrington had ref on there side hard to win a game with refs like that i belive they called a TD when the kid dove for a pass in the end zone an the ball hit ground an bounced into his hands terrible call there thats just one of many i could go all day but it hurt the Cardinals the most at the End when they could have won the game but Poor reffing did it for them!!

[BisonCardinal]

You both hit it on the head. Seemed like the timekeeper was some teenage homer that they pulled off the street because no one else wanted to do it.

[armedndangerous]

I try not to get too worked up about judgement calls, well because they arent always going to go the way you see them. BUT when an official doesnt know the rules or doesnt understand the correct interpretation of the rules i get mad. You are totally right about the illegal kick as long as it occured outside of the endzone they should have been able to take the ball at the spot that he kicked it at, first and goal. Saw this happen to Mike Dragosovich from NDSU last season.

As far as the 2nd you would think the clock could have been reset by the officials since they should also be watching the clock, but clock issues happen from time to time too.


I was at a game this weekend where a team got called for too many men on the field on a 3rd down play. Somehow the refs determined that this was a 15 yard penalty. When I asked one of the side officials if he was sure about that he said yes. Now im not a rules expert but im pretty positive that too many men on the field is a 5 yard penalty and a repeat of the down. Its so sick when refs cant get rules correct and hurt the kids playing the game.

[Hinsa]

Folks, we gotta be very careful when we discuss referees. You can discuss rules interpretations, you can agree or disagree with calls. But the first slam at a ref will get a topic locked. That includes timekeepers at well.

I have a couple of questions: is it really a penalty for kicking the ball? Has anyone read this in the rule book? The reason I ask is because in the first post it was stated that this is "apparently" a penalty. This is where we get into trouble - people who are not sure of the rules assuming the refs are wrong. I honestly dont know if it is a penalty - that's why I'm asking.

As for the shot at the timekeeper - do you know if the ref wound his arm to start the clock? If so, it's not the timekeeper's fault. And do we know for sure if a penalty stops the clock?

Rules are often different in high school than college or the pros. I know I've yelled about calls in games only to find out later that the rule is different in high school.

If there are any refs out there who would care to comment it would be cool to get answers. Or if anyone has a rule book to read and could find answers for us.

And remember - NO SHOTS AT REFS OR TIMEKEEPERS!

[steve34]

I'm not sure I found the right rule, but I have copy of the 2008 NFHS Football Rules. I"ll post this rule, and we can start to pick it apart with the exceptions that others will find.

Rule 8, Section 5, Article 2, Item B states:

"It is a safety when a player who is either int he field of play or in his end zone, forces a loose ball from the field of play to or across his goal line by his kick, pass, fumble, snap, or by a new force to a grounded loose ball with his muff or illegal kick (when the penalty is declined), provided the ball is declared dead there in his team's possession (including when the ball is declared dead with no player in possession), or the ball is out of bounds when it becomes dead on or behind their goal line. This does not apply to a legal forward pass which becomes incomplete."

From this aspect, it would appear the call of safety was correct. However, if you dig further into the rule book:

Rule 2, Section 24, Article 4 states:

"A scrimmage kick is any legal kick from in or behind the neutral zone. Either a place kick, punt, or drop kick may be used. For a place kick, the ball must be controlled on the ground or on a legal kicking tee by a teammate."

Rule 6, Section 2, states that the penalty for Illegal Kicking is 15 yards.

So, lets wrap this together the best we can. Any kick behind the neutral zone is a scrimmage kick, not a free kick, which would be kickoffs or kicks after safetys. A scrimmage kick must either be punted, dropped kicked, or kicked off the ground or tee while in control of another teammate. An infraction of this rule is a 15 yard penalty. It does not state the penalty is a loss of down. If the illegal kicking results in the ball leaving the kicking teams endzone out of bounds or beyond the back of the endzone, it is a safety, unless the receiving team accepts the penalty.

Under the circumstances described in the game, I would interpret that the kick by the Central Cass player was an illegal kick. He kicked the ball behind the line of scrimmage, but did not punt or drop kick the ball, or kick it off the ground or tee while controlled by a teammate. This kick does not qualify as a legal scrimmage kick. Since he kicked the ball out of the back of the endzone, Carrington has the choice to either:

A) Accept the safety
B) Accept a penalty for illegal kicking

If they accept the penalty for illegal kicking, according to these rules, the penalty should have been 15 yards (or half the distance to the goal) from the previous line of scrimmage, and a replay of 4th down. Under this scenario, Central Cass would have had another chance to punt the ball.

If the rule was a loss of down, then Carrington would definitely be in business. I looked through the book, and didn't find anywhere that it was a loss of down. But if someone does find it in their book or online, please post where you found it so I can see it.

The idea of kicking the ball out the back of the end zone was designed for a blocked punt. If the ball is kicked legally, and blocked, the kicker (or anyone) could kick the ball off the ground out the back for a safety, and that would be the only call. But, since the legal kick never took place, this strategy would not apply, IMHO.

[Hinsa]

Thanks for researching that Steve34. If your interpretation is correct, then the complaint about kicking the ball out of the end zone is in error and the refs made the correct call.

That's what I'm saying with my previous post - make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of the rules before you come on this forum and start complaining about referees.

Anyone else find anything about this issue? How about starting the clock after the penalty?

[steve34]

Actually, if you read the post, the officials, in my view, based on the description given, made the incorrect call. The call should have been an illegal kicking penalty, and Carrington should have had the choice of accepting the safety or a 15 yard penalty and a replay of the down. If the choice was given, then the correct call was made. It sounds like the choice was not given. We need more info before determining whether or not this a right or wrong call.

[BisonCardinal]

Sorry about the comment on the timekeeper. I will tone it down.

[birdman]

I was at the game Carrington recieved 2 points for the safety and Central Cass was penalized 15 yards of the kick after the safety.

[SportsBuff]

If Carrington is as good as they are being cracked up to be or are as good as they say they are, the game shouldn't have even been close at that point in the game.

[5-time state chump]

If Carrington is as good as they are being cracked up to be or are as good as they say they are, the game shouldn't have even been close at that point in the game.

Exactly...exactly. If a team is "supposed" to better than another team, it's just fine if refs make some poor calls agains the team that is supposed to be better, because they should win anyway.

I heard that because Velva beat Harvey, that if they meet in the playoffs, that they are going to make Velva go 20 yards for first downs, and they will only get 2 points for a touchdown....you know...because Velva is "supposed" to be better.


Next time, how about you think before put your thoughts onto a message board, huh? Ya see this time, you forgot to think first.

[twinsfan34]

Thanks for researching that Steve34. If your interpretation is correct, then the complaint about kicking the ball out of the end zone is in error and the refs made the correct call.

That's what I'm saying with my previous post - make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN of the rules before you come on this forum and start complaining about referees.

Anyone else find anything about this issue? How about starting the clock after the penalty?

I am a football official with "white hat" experience. The clock starts with the referee's "ready-for-play" signal if the action which caused the down to end also did not cause the clock to stop. If the action which caused the down to end also caused the clock to be stopped, then the clock starts on the (legal) snap.

Referencing the first post in this thread, about the 12 guys on the field penalty with 15 seconds left.....if the officials let the play go, and didn't blow it dead prior to the snap, then the clock should have started again on the snap because the down ended with the spike (which technically is an incomplete pass). Carrington probably should've have had more time than two seconds.

Clear as mud? I can try to clarify if necessary.

[Bison17]

Ya i was the one who kicked the ball out of the endzone. Wasn't that a nice kick or whet?

[ndsportsfan14]

Ya i was the one who kicked the ball out of the endzone. Wasn't that a nice kick or whet?

no it wasnt

[jumpshooter42]

I was at the game watching everything unfold from central cass' great seating (I had the best seat in the house) and i thought that kick was just dandy, great way react after the bad snap mr. QB i think that play won in for you guys. However that big linebacker with one leg stepped up and made the play on the 1 yard line after that tall skinney defensive back failed to pick the pass off. Great game otherwise!!

[football_lives_on]

Devin Barton should be an All-American

[Bison17]

I was at the game watching everything unfold from central cass' great seating (I had the best seat in the house) and i thought that kick was just dandy, great way react after the bad snap mr. QB i think that play won in for you guys. However that big linebacker with one leg stepped up and made the play on the 1 yard line after that tall skinney defensive back failed to pick the pass off. Great game otherwise!!

ya that skinny kid doesn't play much lol

[jumpshooter42]

What are you talking about bison? I am not a player i said i had the best seat in the house in the stands.

[MowingEmDown]

Ya i was the one who kicked the ball out of the endzone. Wasn't that a nice kick or whet?

that was a great kick