Best Class Be player ever

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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:30 pm

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kraft wasn't an excellent bball player I believe I was just arguing that he wasnt the top 5 in ND if I remember right. I thought Lindahl was because he is one of only two in ND history to get 2000 pts and 1000 rebs.

We played MPCG in the state tourney when Kraft was a senior. We won by 25 and held Kraft to 15 and Klabo to 2 pts and 1 reb in that game. We played against Cando in the first game of that season and Lindahl scored 10 but had a lot of blocks and a decent number of rebounds against us. He really started to come on later that season and probably would have scored 15-20 if we played them again.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby roison33 » Sun Feb 28, 2010 5:50 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Kraft wasn't an excellent bball player I believe I was just arguing that he wasnt the top 5 in ND if I remember right. I thought Lindahl was because he is one of only two in ND history to get 2000 pts and 1000 rebs.

We played MPCG in the state tourney when Kraft was a senior. We won by 25 and held Kraft to 15 and Klabo to 2 pts and 1 reb in that game. We played against Cando in the first game of that season and Lindahl scored 10 but had a lot of blocks and a decent number of rebounds against us. He really started to come on later that season and probably would have scored 15-20 if we played them again.


Well sorry to say but you didn't play Kraft his Sr. year b/c he didn't go to state that year, that was his Jr. year. They lost to Hillsboro two or three times that year including the Region Championship, and that may have been their only losses but I'm not sure. Hillsboro had a solid, very in-shape team with Kacey Coles and Scotty Olsen, but they didn't fare well at state which was surprising.

And just to let you know Leeds was very fun to watch. Maybe not the best I've seen, but still one of my favorite teams ever. Moser was one of those rare players that not only had more skill than most players but also worked harder than anyone out there too. Kind of reminds me of that Singer kid, what do you think?

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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby east sider » Sun Feb 28, 2010 6:51 pm

roison33 is right. If you would have played against him his Senior year I'm sure you would have a little different opinion of his game. I also loved watching those Leeds teams as well, even the girls had some good talent back in the day.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Mar 01, 2010 9:28 am

My bad, I thought he was a senior that year. Guess the memory is going now that I've hit 30. I'm glad you guys enjoyed watching us Leeds kids play back then. We always played hard and played as a team. This year's Northstar team plays a lot like we did back then, but they can put up a lot more points than we ever did.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby InTheKnow » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:29 am

Kraft's senior year it was pretty much Kraft, and Kraft as far as the team goes. I am over exaggerating a little but it was an all new crop of players. People forget in 1995 when MPCG lost to Carrington in the Semis Kraft was only an 8th grader while the main crew of Darren Klabo, Tom Jacobson, and Matt Swift were Sophmores. (Someone correct me if I am wrong) When they won state the following 2 seasons he was just a Freshman and Sophomore. (Also didnt he hit the game winner in the state title game his Fr year?) Had he played on a team where he would have been the only go to player from the time he was a freshman he would have scored 2,000 quite possibly very easy. He was a pure shooter and thats why he drew the attention of South Carolina.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Mar 03, 2010 10:38 am

Yeah, I will give you that but he was the go to player his Jr and Sr seasons. I just go back to what was said in a previous post "Ultimately I wouldn't put Kraft in the top 5 b/c he wasn't the hardest worker and it didn't seem like he did everything he could to help his team like posting up on the block" and that's why I don't put him in the top 5 either. I think of it this way, would he still have been as good if he were 6' instead of 6'7"? I don't think so, but if you take the talent of some of these 6 footers and give them 6 more inches to work with imagine where their game would be. What if Moser or Singer were 6'7" with their work ethic? We'd be talking about them being the best of all time. Also, I'm just curious, how do you think Kraft and Dufault compare? Has anyone seen both of them play quite a bit and can give their perspective?
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby InTheKnow » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:18 am

ndlionsfan wrote:Yeah, I will give you that but he was the go to player his Jr and Sr seasons. I just go back to what was said in a previous post "Ultimately I wouldn't put Kraft in the top 5 b/c he wasn't the hardest worker and it didn't seem like he did everything he could to help his team like posting up on the block" and that's why I don't put him in the top 5 either. I think of it this way, would he still have been as good if he were 6' instead of 6'7"? I don't think so, but if you take the talent of some of these 6 footers and give them 6 more inches to work with imagine where their game would be. What if Moser or Singer were 6'7" with their work ethic? We'd be talking about them being the best of all time. Also, I'm just curious, how do you think Kraft and Dufault compare? Has anyone seen both of them play quite a bit and can give their perspective?


I disagree with your statement about being 6' or 6'7 and being as good. He was always brought up as a wing or Guard considering the rest of the players around him on the team. Why would he post up when he has 2 NFL players on his team to post up for the majority of his career. It also was not the style of offense that the coach had (yeah it was his dad but that is irrelevant in this). His strength was bringing the ball up the floor, 2 dribble penetration and draining from the outside. Which brings me to why I disagree. He was an absolute pure shooter! About as good a shooter as I have ever seen in class B. No matter if he was 6' or 6'7 nothing changes that. That is why he went to South Carolina and had a play designed for him to knock off then #1 Florida as a Freshman. The kid could flat shoot from the outside, so why have him post up? So he can get double teamed in the post kick outside to someone who cant shoot nearly as well? As far as hard working I happened to sit by his next door neighbor at an event and he said he couldn't believe the countless hours he spent shooting in the driveway. They said he shot around 3 hours a day outside of practice and 5+hrs during the summer. Did Moser bust his butt in the games, absolutely. But they are 2 completely different style of players. If I remember right Moser had a limited outside game beyond 15 feet and was relentless inside with head fakes and drawing contact to get to the line. Their are different types of hard workers. Just throwing this out there and not to discredit Moser but maybe he didnt work hard enough outside the game setting to expand his game and be deadly from the outside. Just playing devils advocate. Quite often kids get pegged as not working hard when things look effortless because they are just outstanding athletes or do something at an extremely high level.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:47 am

Moser was deadly from outside, too. He was our best 3 pt shooter and still scored most of his points inside.
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Re: Best Class Be player ever

Postby east sider » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:54 pm

InTheKnow wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Yeah, I will give you that but he was the go to player his Jr and Sr seasons. I just go back to what was said in a previous post "Ultimately I wouldn't put Kraft in the top 5 b/c he wasn't the hardest worker and it didn't seem like he did everything he could to help his team like posting up on the block" and that's why I don't put him in the top 5 either. I think of it this way, would he still have been as good if he were 6' instead of 6'7"? I don't think so, but if you take the talent of some of these 6 footers and give them 6 more inches to work with imagine where their game would be. What if Moser or Singer were 6'7" with their work ethic? We'd be talking about them being the best of all time. Also, I'm just curious, how do you think Kraft and Dufault compare? Has anyone seen both of them play quite a bit and can give their perspective?


I disagree with your statement about being 6' or 6'7 and being as good. He was always brought up as a wing or Guard considering the rest of the players around him on the team. Why would he post up when he has 2 NFL players on his team to post up for the majority of his career. It also was not the style of offense that the coach had (yeah it was his dad but that is irrelevant in this). His strength was bringing the ball up the floor, 2 dribble penetration and draining from the outside. Which brings me to why I disagree. He was an absolute pure shooter! About as good a shooter as I have ever seen in class B. No matter if he was 6' or 6'7 nothing changes that. That is why he went to South Carolina and had a play designed for him to knock off then #1 Florida as a Freshman. The kid could flat shoot from the outside, so why have him post up? So he can get double teamed in the post kick outside to someone who cant shoot nearly as well? As far as hard working I happened to sit by his next door neighbor at an event and he said he couldn't believe the countless hours he spent shooting in the driveway. They said he shot around 3 hours a day outside of practice and 5+hrs during the summer. Did Moser bust his butt in the games, absolutely. But they are 2 completely different style of players. If I remember right Moser had a limited outside game beyond 15 feet and was relentless inside with head fakes and drawing contact to get to the line. Their are different types of hard workers. Just throwing this out there and not to discredit Moser but maybe he didnt work hard enough outside the game setting to expand his game and be deadly from the outside. Just playing devils advocate. Quite often kids get pegged as not working hard when things look effortless because they are just outstanding athletes or do something at an extremely high level.


I guess I mostly agree with InTheKnow on most points. I think Kraft would've been awesome even at 6', just not D1 anymore, but I hate it when people make analogies like that. He was 6' 7" so who cares. If Boschee wasn't as quick would he have been at Kansas? No. If Dufault wasn't 6' 8" would he be D1? No. I didn't realize that what I wrote about him not working hard could be taken the wrong way. But if you saw him play, especially his last year, it would be impossible to play like that without putting the time in -- I was strictly referring to his effort on the court. You have one team you can't beat (Hillsboro), you're 6' 7" and their most athletic player is 6' 1"!! OK, I'm putting you on the block at least once, no matter how long you've played the wing. Now I can't put a lot of blame on Kraft himself, I really think thats up to the coaches. Hillsboro knew Kraft's game, held him under average every time and was easily able to hold everyone else on the team in check b/c you don't need to double a guy standing at the 3 point line. Even two guys from that short Hillsboro team would've had trouble with Kraft down low, and he was a good enough passer to find open guys so why not at least try it a couple times to see how it goes. At the very least throw Hillsboro's defensive game plan (their bread and butter) thru a little loop.

Also lets not get off topic by comparing Moser and Kraft. Two great players, but Kraft was a level above him too. A comparison of Dufault to Kraft sounds interesting. I've only seen Dufault play in college, but I would love to see his HS footage. Without it, I would still bet money Kraft was a slightly better shooter and definitely a better ball handler. Honestly, (ndlionsfan is gonna love this) I would rank Kraft as the most talented player ND has ever seen in a tie with Boschee and Nick Jacobson.
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