Shot Clock coming for Class B

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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby scoobyx2 » Mon Dec 27, 2010 4:16 pm

I always think that it's insulting (without a shot clock) to a weaker team when a strong team walks the ball up and passes it around for no reason as if they are doing them a favor. I would like to see if "weaker" teams would believe that they only have to play defense for 30 or 35 secs, and make the other team to force a shot. Whether they make it or not, you get a chance at the ball. If you can't play defense for 30/35 seconds or get a defensive rebound, then that team deserves to lose by a lot.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby heimer » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:09 pm

Here Here! Well said, scoobyx2!
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:01 pm

Just want to be sure......this did pass and will happen in B girls and boys next year, right.......our girls coach is telling everyone that it will never happen.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Thu Jan 13, 2011 12:32 am

It did pass. It is a reality.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Thu Jan 13, 2011 3:51 pm

thought so but you can't tell the guy anything "it will never come to pass in class b girls basketball" time to lay money down
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Sportsrube » Fri Jan 14, 2011 10:09 am

A number of the HS gyms I have been in this year all ready have them installed and are using them in practice to get a jump start on next season. It is a reality and I don't see them going away after the schools invest all of the money into the systems.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby ClassBEast » Fri Jan 14, 2011 3:08 pm

luvmy3gbb1wr wrote:thought so but you can't tell the guy anything "it will never come to pass in class b girls basketball" time to lay money down


It's a little surprising how uninformed your coach is! :shock:
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:11 pm

nah he knows everything :lol:
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby scoobyx2 » Sat Jan 15, 2011 7:25 am

ClassBEast wrote:
luvmy3gbb1wr wrote:thought so but you can't tell the guy anything "it will never come to pass in class b girls basketball" time to lay money down


It's a little surprising how uninformed your coach is! :shock:

Unfortunately, there are others.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:23 pm

Check out this article about a recent game in Texas where a team nearly knocked off nationally ranked HS team by stalling. Took it to 3 OTs with a chance to win it twice on the last shot, but eventually lost 38-31. Without a shot clock they wouldn't have stood a chance.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog ... ool-312968
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:20 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Check out this article about a recent game in Texas where a team nearly knocked off nationally ranked HS team by stalling. Took it to 3 OTs with a chance to win it twice on the last shot, but eventually lost 38-31. Without a shot clock they wouldn't have stood a chance.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog ... ool-312968

Great article Lionsfan!

And sadly, schools in ND will not have that opportunity to employ that strategy any more. But the game is about the fans and making sure they are happy. Screw the team with less talent that can use strategy to win a game.

But I digress....
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Indy5 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:41 pm

Hinsa wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:Check out this article about a recent game in Texas where a team nearly knocked off nationally ranked HS team by stalling. Took it to 3 OTs with a chance to win it twice on the last shot, but eventually lost 38-31. Without a shot clock they wouldn't have stood a chance.

http://rivals.yahoo.com/highschool/blog ... ool-312968

Great article Lionsfan!

And sadly, schools in ND will not have that opportunity to employ that strategy any more. But the game is about the fans and making sure they are happy. Screw the team with less talent that can use strategy to win a game.

But I digress....

I just don't see how anyone can be in favor of stalling. Patience is one thing, but stalling for 4 minutes at a time is another. It is just ridiculous to me.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:28 pm

It's a game strategy to give your team its best chance to pull off a win. Yeah it might be boring for the fans, but what's the ultimate goal for a team going in to a game? What's the coach's job? To prepare his team and give them the best chance to win. And this isn't just some terrible team that was winless on the year, this is big time HS bball. They have to be pretty decent, but got blown out by this team earlier in the year. So the coach came up with a new game plan and they dang near beat the #12 team in the nation.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Indy5 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:36 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:It's a game strategy to give your team its best chance to pull off a win. Yeah it might be boring for the fans, but what's the ultimate goal for a team going in to a game? What's the coach's job? To prepare his team and give them the best chance to win. And this isn't just some terrible team that was winless on the year, this is big time HS bball. They have to be pretty decent, but got blown out by this team earlier in the year. So the coach came up with a new game plan and they dang near beat the #12 team in the nation.

I still feel it's abosutely ridiculous. I think all basketball should be played with a shot clock to prevent it. It's just not basketball to me.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:13 am

To me, its no different than a baseball team always using sacrifices to get a runner to 2nd or opposing pitchers intentionally walking someone so they don't get a big hit or to load the bases for a force out. No different than a fball team taking 3 knees and letting the clock run out or just running dives up the middle and taking the entire 40 seconds before snapping the ball to keep the clock moving. No different than hockey players playing keep away or clearing the puck to waste time. It's part of all sports. It's strategy. It might not be fun to watch but its all part of the game. Now, unfortunately, its being restricted in bball and it will not even out the playing field or add more parity to the game. It justs makes it that much easier for the good teams.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:34 pm

I am guessing that we may have a generational thing going here.

Is it possible that the Sportscenter generation is used to high-flying highlights and doesn't think patient offense is part of basketball, while those that grew up watching different styles of ball - fast, slow, patient, run-and-gun - think that patient offense is a strategy of the game?

I do know this - more and more we expect to be entertained, and that's not just in sports. Children playing need something to entertain them instead of using their imagination to make up their own entertainment. People go to Church where the service is the most dynamic with glitzy music and amped up preachers. When we watch TV we rarely stay with one station any more; as soon as there is a commercial we start to flip around or have a backup channel ready so we continue to be entertained.

So in my mind - and yes, it is warped sometimes - the shot clock is just one more outgrowth of our need to be entertained.

So, let's make more rules to make it more entertaining.

1. Let's have a 4-point line (don't laugh, I never would have dreamed that the silly 3-point line that the ABA put on the floor would ever catch on)
2. In the last 4 minutes of each half let's give the ball back to the team that is behind after a basket to keep the score close lest we end up with a boring blowout.
3. Let's put the shot clock at 20 seconds: more shots = more points = more entertainment.
4. Let's make free throws worth 2 points - will make defenses more careful which will lead to easier baskets which means more points and entertainment

My point is, where do you stop with gimmicks to make it more entertaining and just play the game the way it is?

Baseball got it right. There has been only one major change in 150 years - the DH - and that was one change too many.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby NDplayin » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:28 pm

Indy5 wrote:I still feel it's abosutely ridiculous. I think all basketball should be played with a shot clock to prevent it. It's just not basketball to me.


Indy, there already rules in place to prevent stalling in basketball. They are called the 10 second count, the 5 second count, and the over and back. It bothers me to hear fans, coaches, and players who think the only way to prevent stalling is a shot clock. The way to prevent stalling is defense. The over and back rule puts ten athletes in a very confined area, and no closely gaurded player can hold or dribble the ball for longer than 5 seconds. In my opinion, if your team doesnt have enough defensive talent, hustle, or knowledge to get out in the half court and provide the pressure necessary to get the ball back, then your team probably doesn't deserve to win. Unfortunately for us, the NDHSAA is allowing the game to be dictated by fans and coaches who only care about half of the game of basketball instead of the full game.

Now, I'm going to step off my soap-box and say that I do not think the Shot-Clock is going to "ruin" Class B basketball by any means. In fact, I think it is going to have a minimum to non-exsistent impact when 2 good teams play each other. My major complaint is that the NDSHAA didn't also implement a Mercy Rule at the same time. In Class B, these two rules must go hand in hand. We already have too many situations in ND where on of the top teams in the state plays one of the worst teams in the state and beats them 80-20 with their JV team pulling the ball out the majority of the second half. Now you are going to foce the winning team to continue running up the score? We are going to see 140-20 blow outs, and you can't even call it unsportsman like! Its a rule, they had to keep shooting.

My biggest fear is that the NDHSAA did foresee this consequence and ignored it on purpose. It is a perfect tactic for them to use to continue their mission to force feed a 3 class system to a state that's refusing to swallow. Now they say, "We need a shot clock, but no mercy rule!" Two years from now they say, "Look at all the big blowouts in North Dakota these days! The only way to stop it is 3 classes!" When the reality is that rather then being RETROACTIVE to the blowouts, they could have been PROACTIVE by instituting a Mercy Rule at the same time as the Shot Clock.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby scc » Fri Jan 28, 2011 2:51 pm

Hinsa wrote:I am guessing that we may have a generational thing going here.

Is it possible that the Sportscenter generation is used to high-flying highlights and doesn't think patient offense is part of basketball, while those that grew up watching different styles of ball - fast, slow, patient, run-and-gun - think that patient offense is a strategy of the game?

I do know this - more and more we expect to be entertained, and that's not just in sports. Children playing need something to entertain them instead of using their imagination to make up their own entertainment. People go to Church where the service is the most dynamic with glitzy music and amped up preachers. When we watch TV we rarely stay with one station any more; as soon as there is a commercial we start to flip around or have a backup channel ready so we continue to be entertained.

So in my mind - and yes, it is warped sometimes - the shot clock is just one more outgrowth of our need to be entertained.

So, let's make more rules to make it more entertaining.

1. Let's have a 4-point line (don't laugh, I never would have dreamed that the silly 3-point line that the ABA put on the floor would ever catch on)
2. In the last 4 minutes of each half let's give the ball back to the team that is behind after a basket to keep the score close lest we end up with a boring blowout.
3. Let's put the shot clock at 20 seconds: more shots = more points = more entertainment.
4. Let's make free throws worth 2 points - will make defenses more careful which will lead to easier baskets which means more points and entertainment

My point is, where do you stop with gimmicks to make it more entertaining and just play the game the way it is?

Baseball got it right. There has been only one major change in 150 years - the DH - and that was one change too many.


Great post... I'm not sure if it's perception or reality, but it sure seems like attention spans aren't what they used to be.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Flip » Fri Jan 28, 2011 7:47 pm

NDplayin wrote:Now, I'm going to step off my soap-box and say that I do not think the Shot-Clock is going to "ruin" Class B basketball by any means. In fact, I think it is going to have a minimum to non-exsistent impact when 2 good teams play each other. My major complaint is that the NDSHAA didn't also implement a Mercy Rule at the same time. In Class B, these two rules must go hand in hand. We already have too many situations in ND where on of the top teams in the state plays one of the worst teams in the state and beats them 80-20 with their JV team pulling the ball out the majority of the second half. Now you are going to foce the winning team to continue running up the score? We are going to see 140-20 blow outs, and you can't even call it unsportsman like! Its a rule, they had to keep shooting.

The fact that you will have much bigger blowouts is not true. I remember the The Schwab posting that 20 points games will turn into 50 point games. It won't happen. In these 80-20 blowouts who is stalling to keep the score so low is it the winning team or the losing team? I've seen so many of these games and almost in everyone the winning team stops pressing and continues to run their normal offense, which never takes up the full shot clock. The losing team isn't good enough to hold on to the ball for 30-35 seconds anyway so the shot clock doesn't even factor into the game.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Indy5 » Sun Jan 30, 2011 1:56 am

ndlionsfan wrote:To me, its no different than a baseball team always using sacrifices to get a runner to 2nd or opposing pitchers intentionally walking someone so they don't get a big hit or to load the bases for a force out. No different than a fball team taking 3 knees and letting the clock run out or just running dives up the middle and taking the entire 40 seconds before snapping the ball to keep the clock moving. No different than hockey players playing keep away or clearing the puck to waste time. It's part of all sports. It's strategy. It might not be fun to watch but its all part of the game. Now, unfortunately, its being restricted in bball and it will not even out the playing field or add more parity to the game. It justs makes it that much easier for the good teams.

I'll kind of give you the baseball thing. But that is still a difference game to me. Baseball is more of a game of little tiny tatical things. Thats what every play is with the pitching/hitting battle.

In football, taking a knee is just how the game of football is played. Thats what you do at the end to end the game. Same with the dives. Same thing with your hockey example. I'm not really complaining about stalling during a blowout in the 4th when you want the game over. I talking about games like last year's region 5 title game. Shiloh comes out in the stall and the end of the 1st quarter is 4-2 or something stupid like that. Thats the type of stall I'm really against. At the end of games, its strategy, but at the beginning, it's just dumb.

Hinsa, It's not that I don't appreciate a patient offense. I see one 19+ nights in the winter. Theres a difference bewteen a patient, 40 second possession offense, and a stalling 2-3 minute possession offense.

I would like to know how the shot clock is a gimmick. I'd also like to know why the DH is so bad.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:18 am

Indy,

The shot clock was invented by the NBA to speed up the pro game because it was boring to fans and they were losing their fan base. It was a gimmick to spur attendance.

High school ball is not the NBA. You can't draft and trade players. You have to play with the talent you have. And with the wide diversity in talent a smart coach uses the tools he/she has to try to even the playing field. Stalling is one such tool that a smart coach uses to level the playing field. The shot clock takes away that tool.

But as I have stated before, that is a moot point for now. We have the shot clock coming and we'll have to see how it plays out.

The DH is a gimmick as well. Some folks in baseball thought it was boring to see a pitcher trying to hit. They wanted to liven up the game by allowing another hitter to hit.

This change also took some of the strategy out of the game, the same way a shot clock removes some strategy options. American League managers no longer had to weigh the choice of removing their starting pitcher in the hopes of getting a hit from a pinch hitter. They no longer have to worry about managing their way through double switches in late innings. The 8th spot in the batting order is no longer a critical spot in the lineup because there is another hitter behind them in the 9th spot.

The only thing the DH has done is provide a lineup spot for aging stars who can no longer play in the field or guys who can hit but can't catch a ball to save their soul. It reduces the need to be a complete baseball player. This also makes it simpler for AL managers because they don't have to weigh the decision between playing a guy who can field but is a light hitter or playing a guy who can mash the ball but hurts the team defense. It dumbs down the game.

Baseball more than any other game pays attention to it's history and keeping the same rules that have been in place for 150 years. The DH gimmick needs to go away and return ALL of major league baseball to real baseball.

One more thought on stalling: if the superior team does not want the lesser team to stall, get out and play defense. Now you force the lesser team to execute good team ball handling to hang onto the ball. And if the lesser team can handle the ball well enough to hang onto it, more power to them. Hanging onto the ball is in itself a skill. Why render that skill useless with a gimmick like the shot clock that is driven by the need to entertain fans of the 1950's NBA?
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby NDplayin » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:04 am

Hinsa wrote:One more thought on stalling: if the superior team does not want the lesser team to stall, get out and play defense. Now you force the lesser team to execute good team ball handling to hang onto the ball. And if the lesser team can handle the ball well enough to hang onto it, more power to them. Hanging onto the ball is in itself a skill. Why render that skill useless with a gimmick like the shot clock that is driven by the need to entertain fans of the 1950's NBA?


Hinsa,

I do not like the idea of playing defense. I do not like it Hinsa-I-am.

I could not, would not on a court
I could not, would not in a fort
I will not play it man-on-man
I will not play it for a fan
I will not play it here or there
I will not play it anywhere
I will not play it worth a 'dam'
I will not play defense, Hinsa-I-Am

"Come-on Man!" Have you actually seen a North Dakota basketball game the last few years? With a very few exceptions, nobody wants to put in the type of effort it takes to stop anybody, even a bad team. Why is this? Because it is difficult, and we are becoming increasingly tolerant of saying "no way" to anything that is difficult. The typical style of defensive play in ND right now is "Im going to just stand here with my hands up and hope you hurry-up and shoot, because make or miss at least I get my turn to run down to the other end of the court (the only end I actually want to be on) and force up my own crappy shot."

How dare you even suggest that we ask our young athletes to do something so uncomfortable as get out and play hard defense? You should be burned at the stake! (tounge firmly in cheek)
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Mon Jan 31, 2011 2:25 pm

I probably should be burned. I feel more and more like a neanderthal in my thinking every day.

Nice post, I got a good laugh out of it!
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby winner-within » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:47 am

NDplayin wrote:
Hinsa wrote:One more thought on stalling: if the superior team does not want the lesser team to stall, get out and play defense. Now you force the lesser team to execute good team ball handling to hang onto the ball. And if the lesser team can handle the ball well enough to hang onto it, more power to them. Hanging onto the ball is in itself a skill. Why render that skill useless with a gimmick like the shot clock that is driven by the need to entertain fans of the 1950's NBA?


Hinsa,

I do not like the idea of playing defense. I do not like it Hinsa-I-am.

I could not, would not on a court
I could not, would not in a fort
I will not play it man-on-man
I will not play it for a fan
I will not play it here or there
I will not play it anywhere
I will not play it worth a 'dam'
I will not play defense, Hinsa-I-Am

"Come-on Man!" Have you actually seen a North Dakota basketball game the last few years? With a very few exceptions, nobody wants to put in the type of effort it takes to stop anybody, even a bad team. Why is this? Because it is difficult, and we are becoming increasingly tolerant of saying "no way" to anything that is difficult. The typical style of defensive play in ND right now is "Im going to just stand here
Hinsa wrote: with my hands up
with my hands up and hope you hurry-up and shoot, because make or miss at least I get my turn to run down to the other end of the court (the only end I actually want to be on) and force up my own crappy shot."

How dare you even suggest that we ask our young athletes to do something so uncomfortable as get out and play hard defense? You should be burned at the stake! (tounge firmly in cheek)


So
Hinsa wrote:Indy,

The shot clock was invented by the NBA to speed up the pro game because it was boring to fans and they were losing their fan base. It was a gimmick to spur attendance.

High school ball is not the NBA. You can't draft and trade players. You have to play with the talent you have. And with the wide diversity in talent a smart coach uses the tools he/she has to try to even the playing field. Stalling is one such tool that a smart coach uses to level the playing field. The shot clock takes away that tool.

But as I have stated before, that is a moot point for now. We have the shot clock coming and we'll have to see how it plays out.

The DH is a gimmick as well. Some folks in baseball thought it was boring to see a pitcher trying to hit. They wanted to liven up the game by allowing another hitter to hit.

This change also took some of the strategy out of the game, the same way a shot clock removes some strategy options. American League managers no longer had to weigh the choice of removing their starting pitcher in the hopes of getting a hit from a pinch hitter. They no longer have to worry about managing their way through double switches in late innings. The 8th spot in the batting order is no longer a critical spot in the lineup because there is another hitter behind them in the 9th spot.

The only thing the DH has done is provide a lineup spot for aging stars who can no longer play in the field or guys who can hit but can't catch a ball to save their soul. It reduces the need to be a complete baseball player. This also makes it simpler for AL managers because they don't have to weigh the decision between playing a guy who can field but is a light hitter or playing a guy who can mash the ball but hurts the team defense. It dumbs down the game.

Baseball more than any other game pays attention to it's history and keeping the same rules that have been in place for 150 years. The DH gimmick needs to go away and return ALL of major league baseball to real baseball.

One more thought on stalling: if the superior team does not want the lesser team to stall, get out and play defense. Now you force the lesser team to execute good team ball handling to hang onto the ball. And if the lesser team can handle the ball well enough to hang onto it, more power to them. Hanging onto the ball is in itself a skill. Why render that skill useless with a gimmick like the shot clock that is driven by the need to entertain fans of the 1950's NBA?


The average Stall? 25 seconds? 1 minute?......Stalling Cant be done unless you have acquired a lead...and at that time you weren't stalling......take your skill and hone it some more so you can maintain it through the 35 seconds...and score right at the end.

Slowdown Game? walk down the court, set up run time off the clock....30 seconds? one minute? still looks funny when you lose with that strategy in a game....A shot clock actually helps you manage the Game clock, which is the name of the game....it will help excel D, it will help the slowdown offenses, because 35 seconds is eternity and plenty of time to make the game seem real slow and it will bring to the game the element it needs to help make Ball (Class B) a better quality outing.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby rock83 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 10:17 am

The shot clock is the biggest waste of money ever. Does someone on the high school activities association own stock in daktronics. if you look at most games the average possession is somewhere between 15-20 seconds long. 30- 35 seconds very rarely happens. also how many games does a coach do enough coaching where they hold on to the ball looking to give their team a chance to win. most coaches sit their and take what they expect. so my point being why would we waste all this time and money on something that probably effects about 1% of games. if a coach things his team has a better chance to win by holding the ball and they win or lose 18-16 would be worse than seeing the physically dominate team win 80-40. just think about it. the game isnt played, like the nba, for the fans enjoyment. its played for the kids and so they learn something. which score would you learn more from. so you want kids to think if they arent as good dont adapt your plan but it is inevitable you cant make adjustments. is that the way life is?
Hinsa wrote:I probably should be burned. I feel more and more like a neanderthal in my thinking every day.

Nice post, I got a good laugh out of it!
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