Shot Clock coming for Class B

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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby heimer » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:04 am

Baseball: If you don't allow a team to hit, you walk in run after run, penalizing your team.

Football: If you do not advance the ball 10 yards in four plays, the other team gets the ball.

Hockey: You can be hit to dislodge the puck.

Class A Basketball: If you do not execute a shot in 30/35 seconds that hits the rim, you lose the basketball, a rule that has led to the Class A game surpassing the B game in quality on every level.

Class B basketball: Hold the ball as long as you can, and if a defender has the audacity to get in your grill, the ref will bail you out with a foul.

By the way, the first three examples are not from professional sports. They are from high school sports in North Dakota. Have a nice day.....with the shot clock. Class B administrators voted for this. Your own think it's a good idea.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:13 am

As a Class B fan...I have no problem with Class B adding the shot clock next year.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 8:45 am

heimer wrote:Baseball: If you don't allow a team to hit, you walk in run after run, penalizing your team.

Football: If you do not advance the ball 10 yards in four plays, the other team gets the ball.

Hockey: You can be hit to dislodge the puck.

Class A Basketball: If you do not execute a shot in 30/35 seconds that hits the rim, you lose the basketball, a rule that has led to the Class A game surpassing the B game in quality on every level.

Class B basketball: Hold the ball as long as you can, and if a defender has the audacity to get in your grill, the ref will bail you out with a foul.

By the way, the first three examples are not from professional sports. They are from high school sports in North Dakota. Have a nice day.....with the shot clock. Class B administrators voted for this. Your own think it's a good idea.


Class A basketball is a higher quality product simply because schools draw from a larger pool of athletes.

I support the shot clock in class B basketball, but you will hardly notice any impact from the shot clock until the last three minutes of the game.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby NDplayin » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:11 pm

heimer wrote:Baseball: If you don't allow a team to hit, you walk in run after run, penalizing your team.

Football: If you do not advance the ball 10 yards in four plays, the other team gets the ball.

Hockey: You can be hit to dislodge the puck.

Class A Basketball: If you do not execute a shot in 30/35 seconds that hits the rim, you lose the basketball, a rule that has led to the Class A game surpassing the B game in quality on every level.

Class B basketball: Hold the ball as long as you can, and if a defender has the audacity to get in your grill, the ref will bail you out with a foul.

By the way, the first three examples are not from professional sports. They are from high school sports in North Dakota. Have a nice day.....with the shot clock. Class B administrators voted for this. Your own think it's a good idea.


Heimer: Even if we ever did agree on a claim, this is a perfect example of why I could never support one of your arguments. You have a long and storied history of supporting every claim you make with logical fallacy after logical fallacy. When presented with a sound argument, you most often respond condescendingly toward the other party and then restate your claim with more errors in reasoning. It’s like you have sold your soul to the Demon of Logically Flawed Arguments.

You lead off this post with a baseball example about walking runs in. That example is severely flawed in itself because you imply the only way to not “allow a team to hit” is to walk them. You conveniently ignore the fact that the other way to not allow a team to hit is to throw unhittable strikes (which could be compared to playing basketball defense superior to that of your opponents offense, therefore not allowing them the luxury of slowing the game down). This logical flaw is called Omission; however, your use of it is really inconsequential because the entire baseball example itself is another flaw. In essence you are comparing apples to oranges. You are taking baseball, a sport where the defense has the ball and can therefore dictate the pace of the game, to basketball, a sport where the offense has the ball and can therefore dictate the pace of the game. The use of irrelevant evidence and disguising it as relevant in order to distract your audience from the actual claim at hand is a fallacy called Red Herring.

Amazingly, your next three pieces of evidence are actually relevant to the topic of the shot clock in Class B basketball. You disclose the rules of each of the three sports that partially serve the purpose of preventing stalling by the offensive team (incidentally: In Hockey you can hit a player to dislodge the puck, in Class B basketball you can jump in a passing lane or tip a dribble to retrieve the ball). However, while you do present three valid pieces of evidence, the problem arises in your choice to compare them to holding the ball in Class B basketball. You see, four downs in football, checking in hockey, and the shot clock in Class A are rules of the sport. Holding the ball is one of many possible offensive strategies in Class B basketball, not a rule. If you wanted to compare the rules of each sport that partially prevent stalling by the offensive team you could have chosen the over-and-back rule, the ten-second count, and the five-second count for Class B basketball. If you wanted to compare potential offensive strategies for each sport you could have chosen taking a knee and only executing simple running plays for football, and passing the puck around the ice without the intention of scoring when you have a lead for hockey. To compare the rules of 3 others sports to a potential offensive strategy of the sport in question is evasive. This fallacy is called Uncommon Comparison.

I especially love the little “and if a defender has the audacity to get in your grill, the ref will bail you out with a foul” commentary that you throw in at the end of your Class B comparison. Has that happened in Class B basketball before? Absolutely. Does that mean that it happens every time? Not even close. Does that even mean that it happens frequently? No, not that either. Does it apply to a shot clock? No. Do refs occasionally make bad ‘bail out’ calls in Class A basketball, College basketball, and Pro basketball regardless of the shot clock? Yes. Does it elicit an emotional reaction and therefore remain memorable when it does happen, no matter how infrequently? Yes.

To use the fact that a possible event (bad call) is vivid and memorable to imply that it will happen frequently is to commit the fallacy of Misleading Vividness, and to use the emotions caused by a memorable event to falsely imply relevance to a claim is to commit the fallacy of Appeal to Emotion.

Bisonguy06 already beat me to the punch in pointing out that just because “the Class A game has surpassed the Class B game in quality at every level” does not mean that happened because of the shot clock. He is right; the talent pool of Class A basketball will always be superior to that of Class B basketball. For you to notice that Class A is better ball than Class B, for you to notice to that Class A has a shot clock and Class B doesn’t, and for you to assume that the reason behind Class A being better is the shot clock without examining other reasons is for you to commit the fallacy of Ignoring a Common Cause.

You end your post with, “Class B administrators voted for this. Your own think it's a good idea.” This fallacy is a lot of fun, let me try: Most people voted for Barack Obama for President, therefore, Obama was the best choice for President. Most 16 year olds want to be friends with the snobby, beautiful homecoming princess, therefore the homecoming princess must be a good friend. Most, North Dakota teenagers consume alcohol, therefore underage drinking must be a good thing. Most people believe in God (so do I), therefore God exists. The National Federation of High School Sports does not sanction the use of a shot clock in high school basketball because most athletic directors in the nation don’t want it, therefore a shot clock is a bad idea. And my personal favorite, most athletic directors in North Dakota vote against a three-class system, therefore a three-class system is a bad idea. I was right, that was fun.

To assert that a claim is true simply because the majority believe it to be true is to commit the fallacy of Appeal to Popularity.

To be fair, I should point out that just because every piece of evidence you use to support your shot clock claims is flawed, does not automatically mean that your shot clock claim is wrong. It just means that the evidence you use can’t be responsible if indeed your got lucky and your claim happened to be right. After all, even a blind squirrel can find an acorn now and again. Indeed, for me to claim that you are always wrong simply because you are always seemingly incapable of constructing a sound argument would be for me to commit the fallacy of Circumstantial Ad Hominem.

As I have stated before, I am not opposed to the shot clock, I think it is unnecessary and therefore personally wouldn’t have voted for it, but I in no way think it will ruin Class B basketball. I think it is unnecessary because I think it will be a non-factor anytime two good Class B teams play each other. My concern is that a Mercy Rule gets approved to go into affect concurrently with the Shot Clock. Since the discrepancy between the good Class B teams and the bad Class B teams of any given year is so large, and because the shot clock deprives the game of the particular offensive strategy that prevents overly large, seemingly unsportsman-like scores, I feel the mercy rule and the shot clock must go hand-in-hand at the Class B level or else we will be flooded with point spreads of 80 and larger.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby heimer » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:06 pm

Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Flying Wallenda » Tue Mar 01, 2011 11:27 am

heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.

I saw a district 3 GBB game last night...Hillsboro(4-16) vs. Hatton-Northwood(11-10)...HN clearly with more talent, Hillsboro worked the clock endlessly, really limited possessions, and won 30-26. With a shot clock Hillsboro doesn't stand a chance in that game.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Tue Mar 01, 2011 1:25 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.

I saw a district 3 GBB game last night...Hillsboro(4-16) vs. Hatton-Northwood(11-10)...HN clearly with more talent, Hillsboro worked the clock endlessly, really limited possessions, and won 30-26. With a shot clock Hillsboro doesn't stand a chance in that game.

I second that Wallenda. With a clock that upset doesn't happen. Hillsboro was not stalling, they were keeping the game at a slow pace to give themselves a chance to win and they executed it almost perfectly.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby heimer » Tue Mar 01, 2011 2:56 pm

If the shotclock would have come into play, it was stalling. Any upset generated because of this tactic isn't worth seeing.

Good luck in regionals.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Flying Wallenda » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:16 pm

heimer wrote:If the shotclock would have come into play, it was stalling. Any upset generated because of this tactic isn't worth seeing.

Good luck in regionals.

Why...because you said so? I get a kick out of your posts since Valley was removed from Class B...very negative and generally quite whiney. If class B is so broke, so based upon the fallacy of parity without acual parity, why in the world did you want Valley to compete in class B? You should have been shouting hip-hip hooray when they were moved back to the much superior product that class A has...correct? I enjoyed watching the Ed Beyer teams of the past that worked the ball for a layup/close attempt. Dave Nelson of MPCG-same thing. Being able to control tempo and handle the ball until a good attempt presents itself if called DISCIPLINE! Teams combat this by pressuring ball handlers, getting into passing lanes, pressing, running and jumping, trapping, etc. And FYI I'm not opposed to the shot clock, as you said administrator's made the decision to use it and next year its happening. Teams will have to adjust. However, I DO find value in games like last nights Hillsboro-HN game...Morehart did a great job in getting his kids to do what they had to in order to win....label it anyway you'd like.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Hinsa » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:23 pm

heimer wrote:If the shotclock would have come into play, it was stalling. Any upset generated because of this tactic isn't worth seeing.

Good luck in regionals.

Heimer the Great has spoken.

Any possession over 30 seconds for girls and 35 seconds for boys is stalling.

And we now know how to keep Heimer out of the gym - slow the game down.

And thank you for wishing the Burros good luck in the regionals.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby sportsfan25 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 3:34 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.

I saw a district 3 GBB game last night...Hillsboro(4-16) vs. Hatton-Northwood(11-10)...HN clearly with more talent, Hillsboro worked the clock endlessly, really limited possessions, and won 30-26. With a shot clock Hillsboro doesn't stand a chance in that game.

I did a little number crunching and here's some food for thought. If each team shot only 2 point baskets, no FTs and no 3's, and made 50% of their shots (a very high percentage by any team, let alone 2 teams), that means there were 56 shots taken in this 32 minute game. Barring any offensive rebounding or turnovers, that means each possession lasted 34.3 seconds on average. If each team shot 40% from the field (still high) with the same stipulations, each possession averaged 27.4 seconds. The girls shot clock is going to be 30 seconds next year. Do you really think this type of game still isn't possible? That question goes to those people saying it will speed up the game and to those people complaining that with a shot clock you can't run a stalling strategy.

Bottom line is that a RULES change is coming and good coaches will devise STRATEGIES to work within the given system. Just like if ND goes to 3 classes (and I can see the pros and cons to both) the world will not end and good coaches will still find a way to be successful with the players at his/her disposal.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby HometownHigh » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:44 pm

Lets flip the criteria for coach of the year, and not just hand it to a coach who happens to be blessed with talented kids for a year or two, (boring, yawn) ...

and give it to the coaches who accomplish just what Morehart has, take a less talented team to the regionals when every person in the district would have bet against just such a team advancing.

Thats a (great) coach of the year.

And PS - only ONE team will make it out of regions, and FOUR teams will lose day one, not just the team entering with a lopsided win/loss record
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:30 pm

Flying Wallenda wrote:
heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.

I saw a district 3 GBB game last night...Hillsboro(4-16) vs. Hatton-Northwood(11-10)...HN clearly with more talent, Hillsboro worked the clock endlessly, really limited possessions, and won 30-26. With a shot clock Hillsboro doesn't stand a chance in that game.


Call it what you want... I call that excellent coaching. Change the rules, and that coach may just figure out something else. But for now, that is brilliant.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Bisonguy06 » Tue Mar 01, 2011 6:38 pm

heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.


This is called a straw man tactic - attribute a flawed argument to the other side, and attack that weak argument, as if it were theirs and not your own.

No one trumpets parity in class B. There are many competitive games, but lots of blowouts, too. There always have been and always will be weak links. But a North Star can still win state, and that is one of many things that makes the B great.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Flying Wallenda » Wed Mar 02, 2011 8:21 am

Bisonguy06 wrote:
Flying Wallenda wrote:
heimer wrote:Perfect system coming, no mercy rule and a shot clock. Class B has survived on its legacy of parity, without the practice of parity, as a team devoid of talent can stall the game away and lose by 20.

The shot clock does away with this, and we will finally see the phantom parity of Class B.

Perfect. Just perfect.

I saw a district 3 GBB game last night...Hillsboro(4-16) vs. Hatton-Northwood(11-10)...HN clearly with more talent, Hillsboro worked the clock endlessly, really limited possessions, and won 30-26. With a shot clock Hillsboro doesn't stand a chance in that game.


Call it what you want... I call that excellent coaching. Change the rules, and that coach may just figure out something else. But for now, that is brilliant.

AMEN..read my previous posts....it was the perfect strategy for the Burro's and hats off to Morehart, he did a heckuva job.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby heimer » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:10 am

A heck of a great job. Turned the game of basketball into the game of keepaway.

I haven't seen a good game of keepaway since the playgrounds at 6 or 7 years old.

Maybe we can get a football coach to turn a game into an organized game of smear and trumpet his accomplishments.
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby Flip » Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:53 am

heimer wrote:I don't know why it's so hard for people to wrap their minds around the concept that every sport, except basketball, has rules which force teams to attempt to score. The only other excpetion is hockey, and hockey at least allows a person to dole out a physical penalty for not attempting to score.

how about soccer, lacrosse, field hockey, polo, or water polo?
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby HometownHigh » Sat Mar 05, 2011 3:45 pm

heimer wrote:A heck of a great job. Turned the game of basketball into the game of keepaway.

I haven't seen a good game of keepaway since the playgrounds at 6 or 7 years old.

Maybe we can get a football coach to turn a game into an organized game of smear and trumpet his accomplishments.

Perfect time to reference six or seven years of age..mandating that every team have exactly the same amount of possessions is reminiscent of grade school times..treat everybody alike so as not to upset anyone...
Keep away is a fun childhood game..but most bball fans players and coaches know that if you don't have possession.. You better play d... And go get it
The burros played like a team at the right time(and one of the only times all year) And the thunder didn't. End game
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby ndfan » Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:18 pm

North Dakota should just get rid of the clock and shot clock and just play first team to 100 wins. :D
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Re: Shot Clock coming for Class B

Postby winner-within » Mon Mar 07, 2011 3:14 pm

ndfan wrote:North Dakota should just get rid of the clock and shot clock and just play first team to 100 wins. :D


Win By 2?.. see, more controversy :D
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