Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

[winner-within]

winner within wrote: Most Small schools cooked their own Goose....but now we have to fix it for them so they can watch their kid who shouldn't be playing at state....Play at state! OH OK!!

winner, the above statement is precisely why I have a problem. You are stating by going to a 3-class system, inferior players and/or teams will be participating at state. Why? Inferior to who? The NBA, college, class A? It depends where you draw the line. They will be going to state because they are the best team/players at that level. If Cavalier makes it to the state championship game in football this year, since they are class A and not AAA, they shouldn't be there? Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Of course it makes sense...Cavalier won 48 games in a row (using them as an example because you did, not boasting) and three championships at AA when their enrollment was more inline with A Schools.....WHY??? because of the standards, the ethics, the culture, the heritage, the legacy....(see, these are all sports associated terms) and last but not least The program
Size (in this case or in Baketball in ND doesn't matter as much as the three party backers thinks it does....teach them how to play the sport....and take the ones who love playing it and play them....get the favorites off the floor and play the ones that should be playing....and half the battle is solved.

Your points are valid for any system and era, period. The good programs do that at all levels and always have. But no matter how much you follow that, you still will not compete with larger, bigger programs. So, where do you draw the line?
You didn't answer my question. If Cavalier makes it to the championship in football, are you saying they shouldn't be there because they are not AAA?

They wouldn't make it there, so i dont have to worry about it....and they Should Not or Better not (for the benefit of the sport) start building on a plan to help them make it there....so, there's your answer.

[scruffy]

and the decision is......................... (has anyone heard??)

[1205]

Three-class proposal voted down at NDHSAA meeting

BISMARCK - The latest three-class proposal for North Dakota high school basketball and volleyball was voted down at the North Dakota High School Activities Association meeting Thursday in Bismarck.

By: Heath Hotzler, INFORUM

BISMARCK - The latest three-class proposal for North Dakota high school basketball and volleyball was voted down at the North Dakota High School Activities Association meeting Thursday in Bismarck.

The vote was 110 opposed and 47 in favor.

[scruffy]

Fantastic! Now, will they give up for a year.... a month... a day????

[Run4Fun2009]

Three-class proposal voted down at NDHSAA meeting

BISMARCK - The latest three-class proposal for North Dakota high school basketball and volleyball was voted down at the North Dakota High School Activities Association meeting Thursday in Bismarck.

By: Heath Hotzler, INFORUM

BISMARCK - The latest three-class proposal for North Dakota high school basketball and volleyball was voted down at the North Dakota High School Activities Association meeting Thursday in Bismarck.

The vote was 110 opposed and 47 in favor.

YAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hinsa]

Good!

And I agree with Scruffy, they'll probably give up for a whole month or so before another plan is hatched.

[Flip]

who votes for this and can you see the results?

[ndlionsfan]

who votes for this and can you see the results?

I believe its a rep from each member school...more than likely an AD or Supt. I doubt if they publish who voted which way.

[a-simple-fan]

who votes for this and can you see the results?

I believe its a rep from each member school...more than likely an AD or Supt. I doubt if they publish who voted which way.

Check your local school board minutes. I know our school board directed the Superintendent to vote "no".

[ClassBEast]

Latest 3-class proposal voted down again at NDHSAA general assembly meeting
By: Heath Hotzler, INFORUM

BISMARCK – A proposal to bring three classes to North Dakota prep volleyball and basketball was defeated 110-47 during the North Dakota High School Activities Association general assembly meeting Thursday at the Ramkota Ballroom.

“I think it was a good process,” said Edgeley Superintendant Rick Diegel, one of the authors of the proposal. “I think we worked hard in trying to create a plan that we thought would be accepted or understood by all the member schools. Edgeley has always supported a 3-class plan, and we would continue to support a 3-class plan.”

There was little discussion before the vote.

Just three administrators addressed the NDHSAA membership: Valley City’s Dean Koppelman, Kindred’s Steve Hall and Barnes County North’s Doug Jacobson.

“… I think it’s something that needs to happen to level the playing field,” Jacobson said.

“A few years ago, my feeling is that we gave this authority to the Board of Directors. I think the Board is in a better position for the state of North Dakota and high school activities to make a decision about a three-class proposal,” Hall said.

Diegel said the proposal was defeated likely because it did not have three separate state tournaments.

The plan was brought to the NDHSAA Board of Directors in June by a group of administrators from across the state, led by Diegel and Koppelman.

The proposal called for Class A to remain largely the same as a re-named Class 2A.

The next 40 schools with the highest enrollment would make up Class A, and the almost 80 remaining schools would be Class B.

The plan combined teams from Class A and Class B for the state tournament. Each class would have advanced four teams to state, ensuring four schools with smaller enrollments would have a chance at a championship.

Initially, the proposal had Class A and Class B teams playing in separate brackets before coming together on the final day to create a “David vs. Goliath” title game.

That idea was scrapped in September due to negative feedback.

Koppelman and Diegel said they would like to see the NDHSAA Board now pick up the reins and try to come up with a plan that would be palatable to the membership.

That has already happened.

The Board came under fire when it floated its own 3-class proposal in January 2009. That proposal was defeated by the Board 7-3 after a survey of members showed opposition to a 3-class system held an 87-76 majority.

The Board was also criticized in 2008 when it changed the enrollment cutoff for Class A from 25 to 400, which allowed Valley City to drop to Class B.

An amendment to the NDHSAA bylaws co-sponsored by Edgeley and LaMoure to move the cutoff back to 325 was later passed.

In 2008, a straw poll of NDHSAA members showed 78 against and 55 in favor of a 3-class system for basketball and volleyball.

A 3-class plan was defeated 120-49 in 2005.

“There is some disappointment,” Koppelman said. “A lot of effort was given over the past year by a number of people to develop something we thought would be a good vehicle for some positive change for kids in North Dakota and for our state.

“I don’t regret at all the time spent on this.”

[scc]

From the Bismarck Tribune:

For (47): Barnes County North (Rogers), Barnes County North (Wimbledon-Courtenay), Beulah, Center-Stanton, Dickinson, Edgeley, Ellendale, Enderlin, Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, Gackle-Streeter, Glen Ullin, Griggs County Central, Hebron, Hettinger, Kulm, Lidgerwood, Litchville-Marion, Maple Valley, Medina, Midkota, Montpelier, Mott-Regent, Munich, New England, North Sargent, Richardton-Taylor, Richland, Sawyer, Scranton, Solen-Cannonball, Starkweather, Strasburg, TGU (Granville), TGU (Towner), Trenton, Underwood, Valley City, Valley-Edinburg, Wahpeton, Warwick, West Fargo, White Shield, Williston Trinity Christian, Wilton, Wyndmere.

Against (110): Adams-Edmore, Ashley, Beach, Belfield, Bismarck, Bismarck Century, Bismarck St. Mary's, Bottineau, Bowbells, Bowman County, Carrington, Cavalier, Central Cass, Central Valley, Dakota Prairie, Des Lacs-Burlington, Devils Lake, Dickinson Trinity, Divide County, Drake-Anamoose, Drayton, Dunseith, Fairmount, Fargo Shanley, Fessenden-Bowdon, Finley-Sharon, Flasher, Fordville-Lankin, Four Winds, Garrison, Glenburn, Goodrich, Grafton, Grand Forks Central, Grand Forks Red River, Grant County, Hankinson, Harvey, Hatton, Hazelton-Moffit-Braddock, Hazen, Hillsboro, Hope-Page, Jamestown, Kenmare, Kensal, Kidder County (Steele), Kidder County (Tappen), Killdeer, Kindred, Lakota, LaMoure, Langdon Area, Larimore, Lewis & Clark (Berthold), Lewis & Clark (North Shore), Linton, Lisbon, Mandan, Mandaree, Max, May-Port-CG, McClusky, Midway, Minnewaukan, Minot, Minot Ryan, Minto, Mohall-Sherwood, Napoleon, New Rockford-Sheyenne, New Salem-Almont, New Town, Newburg, North Border (Pembina), North Border (Walhalla), North Star (Cando), Northern Cass, Northwood, Oak Grove, Oakes, Our Redeemer's, Park River, Parshall, Pingree-Buchanan, Powers Lake, Ray, Rock Lake, Rolla, Rugby, Sargent Central, Selfridge, Shiloh Christian, South Heart, St. John, St. Thomas, Stanley, Surrey, Thompson, Tioga, Turtle Lake-Mercer, Turtle Mountain, Velva, Washburn, Watford City, Westhope, Williston, Wishek, Wolford, Zeeland.

[winner-within]

From the Bismarck Tribune:

For (47): Barnes County North (Rogers), Barnes County North (Wimbledon-Courtenay), Beulah, Center-Stanton, Dickinson, Edgeley, Ellendale, Enderlin, Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, Gackle-Streeter, Glen Ullin, Griggs County Central, Hebron, Hettinger, Kulm, Lidgerwood, Litchville-Marion, Maple Valley, Medina, Midkota, Montpelier, Mott-Regent, Munich, New England, North Sargent, Richardton-Taylor, Richland, Sawyer, Scranton, Solen-Cannonball, Starkweather, Strasburg, TGU (Granville), TGU (Towner), Trenton, Underwood, Valley City, Valley-Edinburg, Wahpeton, Warwick, West Fargo, White Shield, Williston Trinity Christian, Wilton, Wyndmere.

Against (110): Adams-Edmore, Ashley, Beach, Belfield, Bismarck, Bismarck Century, Bismarck St. Mary's, Bottineau, Bowbells, Bowman County, Carrington, Cavalier, Central Cass, Central Valley, Dakota Prairie, Des Lacs-Burlington, Devils Lake, Dickinson Trinity, Divide County, Drake-Anamoose, Drayton, Dunseith, Fairmount, Fargo Shanley, Fessenden-Bowdon, Finley-Sharon, Flasher, Fordville-Lankin, Four Winds, Garrison, Glenburn, Goodrich, Grafton, Grand Forks Central, Grand Forks Red River, Grant County, Hankinson, Harvey, Hatton, Hazelton-Moffit-Braddock, Hazen, Hillsboro, Hope-Page, Jamestown, Kenmare, Kensal, Kidder County (Steele), Kidder County (Tappen), Killdeer, Kindred, Lakota, LaMoure, Langdon Area, Larimore, Lewis & Clark (Berthold), Lewis & Clark (North Shore), Linton, Lisbon, Mandan, Mandaree, Max, May-Port-CG, McClusky, Midway, Minnewaukan, Minot, Minot Ryan, Minto, Mohall-Sherwood, Napoleon, New Rockford-Sheyenne, New Salem-Almont, New Town, Newburg, North Border (Pembina), North Border (Walhalla), North Star (Cando), Northern Cass, Northwood, Oak Grove, Oakes, Our Redeemer's, Park River, Parshall, Pingree-Buchanan, Powers Lake, Ray, Rock Lake, Rolla, Rugby, Sargent Central, Selfridge, Shiloh Christian, South Heart, St. John, St. Thomas, Stanley, Surrey, Thompson, Tioga, Turtle Lake-Mercer, Turtle Mountain, Velva, Washburn, Watford City, Westhope, Williston, Wishek, Wolford, Zeeland.

thanks for posting this, it gives some insight

[ClassBEast]

Why the heck would the "really bigs" on the eastern side of the state vote for it?? Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, West Fargo - why do they care? Unless they think the crazy A/B state tournament that was being proposed would all of a sudden make their state tournament more appealing?

[Indy5]

Why the heck would the "really bigs" on the eastern side of the state vote for it?? Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, West Fargo - why do they care? Unless they think the crazy A/B state tournament that was being proposed would all of a sudden make their state tournament more appealing?

They don't think its necessary to play VC? Or they just don't really care and just vote something.

[heimer]

They are tired of having to play Valley City, and felt the change was a correct way to go about things?

[GRIDIRON GURU]

I hope we can move on and away from any more three class bs. The member schools have spoken for the umteenth time.

I will say that if any proposal had a chance to pass it would have been this one. It was pretty well thought out and actually had some merits to it. Yet it got crushed once again.

[Hinsa]

This makes 6 votes on this issue in the last 20 years. This from the Grand Forks Herald today:

Three-class proposals were voted down by the general assembly in 1990, 1994 and 2004. In 2008 a nonbinding straw poll resulted in 59 percent opposition to a three-class system, and in 2009 the association board voted down another proposal.

Yet in Hotzler's article it said someone is ALREADY rolling on ANOTHER plan. That really, really, really angers me. Voted down 6 TIMES, yet they are going to try again. What a waste of time, money, and resources.

[ClassBEast]

This makes 6 votes on this issue in the last 20 years. This from the Grand Forks Herald today:

Three-class proposals were voted down by the general assembly in 1990, 1994 and 2004. In 2008 a nonbinding straw poll resulted in 59 percent opposition to a three-class system, and in 2009 the association board voted down another proposal.

Yet in Hotzler's article it said someone is ALREADY rolling on ANOTHER plan. That really, really, really angers me. Voted down 6 TIMES, yet they are going to try again. What a waste of time, money, and resources.

Agreed! It's far past time to LET IT GO!!

[winner-within]

The true fact of the matter is another Class could only make total sense if the population of rural ND increased by at least 10%.....It does get old seeing the same teams at the state tourn....but we have to attack that problem differently than adding a Class...For Football seeing Velva and Now Watford there all the time is enough to make some puke....but the other side of the coin is they deserve all they get, due to hard work a dedication.
If making it to Class B State is truly the Ultimate Ordeal in ND than why would we want to alter it or change it.
It still would take years and years to cycle 3 "smalls" from each region thru the mill.
Sports breed themselves, there are Studs that come down the Pipe that never see a State tourn and there are groups of above average Players with an above average Coach that are there every 5 years. Its in the water, its in their blood, Its in their mind, its not coincidental, and more importantly, its born into the geographic area.

[Bisonguy06]

Why the heck would the "really bigs" on the eastern side of the state vote for it?? Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, West Fargo - why do they care? Unless they think the crazy A/B state tournament that was being proposed would all of a sudden make their state tournament more appealing?

The "really bigs" were only minimally affected by this plan either way, and they probably looked at it from the angle of "Is this plan better for the majority of North Dakota student-athletes?" There are reasonable people on both sides of that coin, so I don't have an issue with any class A schools voting "yes," even though I would answer "no" to the same question. You also can't expect a class A school to just abstain from voting, even though there would have been little change out east and no change out west.

Fargo public schools participated in the design of this plan and so did Wahpeton, so there should be no surprise that North, South, Davies and Wahpeton voted 'yes.'

The most interesting votes, in my mind, are Jamestown's "no" vote and Williston Trinity Christian's "yes" vote. Jamestown was one of the twelve schools that helped draft the plan. Why did they vote no? Any idea? Did I miss any other schools within the 12 that backed out?

And I think it's pretty natural that the private schools would vote against this plan due to the 1.4 weighting factor... so I was surprised to see that Trinity Christian voted for the plan.

[Run4Fun2009]

Why the heck would the "really bigs" on the eastern side of the state vote for it?? Fargo Davies, Fargo North, Fargo South, West Fargo - why do they care? Unless they think the crazy A/B state tournament that was being proposed would all of a sudden make their state tournament more appealing?

The "really bigs" were only minimally affected by this plan either way, and they probably looked at it from the angle of "Is this plan better for the majority of North Dakota student-athletes?" There are reasonable people on both sides of that coin, so I don't have an issue with any class A schools voting "yes," even though I would answer "no" to the same question. You also can't expect a class A school to just abstain from voting, even though there would have been little change out east and no change out west.

Fargo public schools participated in the design of this plan and so did Wahpeton, so there should be no surprise that North, South, Davies and Wahpeton voted 'yes.'

The most interesting votes, in my mind, are Jamestown's "no" vote and Williston Trinity Christian's "yes" vote. Jamestown was one of the twelve schools that helped draft the plan. Why did they vote no? Any idea? Did I miss any other schools within the 12 that backed out?

And I think it's pretty natural that the private schools would vote against this plan due to the 1.4 weighting factor... so I was surprised to see that Trinity Christian voted for the plan.

Yes but the 1.4 weighting factor did not affect Trinity Christian...if you look at the list they would have been the only private school in Class B (small schools).

[Bisonguy06]

Minot Our Redeemers would have remained in B, too. It's not true that the proposal had "no effect" on these schools. The 1.4 inflated their enrollment, but not enough to push them to 'A' at this time. I'm still a little miffed.

Anyone know Jamestown's reasoning?

[Flip]

The true fact of the matter is another Class could only make total sense if the population of rural ND increased by at least 10%.....It does get old seeing the same teams at the state tourn....but we have to attack that problem differently than adding a Class...For Football seeing Velva and Now Watford there all the time is enough to make some puke....but the other side of the coin is they deserve all they get, due to hard work a dedication.

How should we do it?

[winner-within]

The true fact of the matter is another Class could only make total sense if the population of rural ND increased by at least 10%.....It does get old seeing the same teams at the state tourn....but we have to attack that problem differently than adding a Class...For Football seeing Velva and Now Watford there all the time is enough to make some puke....but the other side of the coin is they deserve all they get, due to hard work a dedication.

How should we do it?

Well i know we need to focus hard on Consolidations.....Pay the AD's and Head Coaches More...and Have way more Tournaments and starter programs for the 2end 3erd and 4th Graders....Build Programs, strive for excellence.

[scruffy]

or...insist that every family in the school district has at least 10 kids!