Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

[Hinsa]

I think they are referring to the perception of teams making it every other year. Linton has been there a few times lately. Trinity had a good run. MPCG had a good run. Ryan had a good run.

So when teams have a good run the perception is that those teams are making it to state every year or every other year.

[scoobyx2]

I think they are referring to the perception of teams making it every other year. Linton has been there a few times lately. Trinity had a good run. MPCG had a good run. Ryan had a good run.

So when teams have a good run the perception is that those teams are making it to state every year or every other year.

I guess I just don't see how having a "chance" to go to State will improve participation and attendance. A team could go to State every year, and if they never win the Championship, we are back to where we started. Its up to the schools and parents (booster clubs) to support their kids and become fans again...win or lose. Thats where the fun starts for the kids.

[classB4ever]

I think they are referring to the perception of teams making it every other year. Linton has been there a few times lately. Trinity had a good run. MPCG had a good run. Ryan had a good run.

So when teams have a good run the perception is that those teams are making it to state every year or every other year.

I guess I just don't see how having a "chance" to go to State will improve participation and attendance. A team could go to State every year, and if they never win the Championship, we are back to where we started. Its up to the schools and parents (booster clubs) to support their kids and become fans again...win or lose. Thats where the fun starts for the kids.

Hinsa was correct. Was not naming any particular school.
Let me put it this way. In the past decade, larger schools/privates have attended the class b tournament at around a 44% rate. These schools make up approximately 17% of the class b schools. In this time, there were 4 or 5 teams that were there multiple times. IMO, there fan base may have dropped over the years. During that same time, smaller schools making up 83% of class b schools participated at a 56% rate. There were also teams that made it multiple times. The difference is, in smaller schools, special groups of athletes come along every 15 - 20 years, make their run and then they are done for another 15 - 20 years. They are replaced by other small schools that make their run. This means that there is consistently a new fan base coming in. Generally these teams haven't been there for years, meaning the towns come out in force. This is just my opinion.
scoobyx2, let me ask you a question:
If we went with the new 3 class proposal, do you think there would be a larger fan base at the state tournament from the small school side or the large school/private side?

[winner-within]

why don't they just do this.......Considering there are so many consolidations of sports and schools etc etc....there are 3 schools in one district with one superintendent... and well, you know what I mean....why don't they just do this.
If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A....with the surplus cash and future oil revenue along with the huge farms and Industry in the state, lets demand new schools be built here and there. I've always been for speeding consolidations but I actually dreamed up this plan and I think it makes more sense....also if you transfer, you have to sit 2 years, no questions!!....then we can have Class B ball back in full force, (I'm not being facetious).
School district's would Balance, teachers would keep their jobs, kids would have more one on one, in the now bigger settings and the sports playing field would be More fair...isn't that the Goal???

[Bisonguy06]

The part about transfers having to sit two years is crazy, sorry.

Let's say I'm a 15 year old in Gwinner. Bobcat closes, both my parents lose their jobs. They find jobs in Carrington. We move, I transfer. You're going to punish me for my parent's misfortune?

[winner-within]

Parent's go and you go?? you can start tomorrow.....

Live with a relative other than one of your Parents and Parent is still alive, or not divorced or legally separated....and you haven't been taken away from them....2 years.

Next question will be "what if they live in different towns due to job's or Schooling"??? etc etc....then it has to be evaluated......

[ndlionsfan]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

[Bisonguy06]

Parent's go and you go?? you can start tomorrow.....

Live with a relative other than one of your Parents and Parent is still alive, or not divorced or legally separated....and you haven't been taken away from them....2 years.

Next question will be "what if they live in different towns due to job's or Schooling"??? etc etc....then it has to be evaluated......

What if you go live with grandpa in a different town because your parents aren't good parents and your home wasn't safe?

What if you move to school B because they offer something academically that your previous school didn't have?

Two years is too long. I know this is a message board for athletics, but many, many students move for reasons that have nothing to do with sports. I get as angry as you do when students and families clearly play the system and move to become a part of a more successful sports program, but you can't create rules that punish all the kids who move for reasons that have nothing to do with sports.

[winner-within]

Parent's go and you go?? you can start tomorrow.....

Live with a relative other than one of your Parents and Parent is still alive, or not divorced or legally separated....and you haven't been taken away from them....2 years.

Next question will be "what if they live in different towns due to job's or Schooling"??? etc etc....then it has to be evaluated......

What if you go live with grandpa in a different town because your parents aren't good parents and your home wasn't safe?

What if you move to school B because they offer something academically that your previous school didn't have?

Two years is too long. I know this is a message board for athletics, but many, many students move for reasons that have nothing to do with sports. I get as angry as you do when students and families clearly play the system and move to become a part of a more successful sports program, but you can't create rules that punish all the kids who move for reasons that have nothing to do with sports.

I already answered that question...But good question...and I dont get angry about transfers....they just need to be regulated a bit more....believe me the folks in VC are not over worked and under paid.

[winner-within]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

200 or less....your a B school....If your 205 then 5 have to move to the closest neighboring (brand new, or currently stable and sound) school with 195 or less...which is much closer than it is now.
Essentially there are no schools with enrollment between 200 K-12 (class B) and 1000 or more K-12 (class A).

This debuts all arguments from the crier's, that love to reign in on the 200 to 400 schools (or what they call "bigs"),claiming.......... unfairness............... isnt what this is a bout???

[classB4ever]

winner, if I could understand your posts, I might be able to respond better. I know what your stance has been in the past. We know that class b will never be what it once was. With that said, there are still things that can be done to increase attendance. There are things that can be done to make for better basketball.
If you want to call me a "crier" because I don't think some things about the current system are fair, have at it. It's a weak defense, but then again, you are generally an "offensive" guy.

[ClassBEast]

NDHSAA: 3-class vote on tap today
By: Heath Hotzler, INFORUM

BISMARCK – The latest three-class plan will be voted on today by North Dakota High School Activities Association members.

However, NDHSAA Executive Secretary Sherm Sylling said Wednesday that some schools may be hesitant to vote for this latest proposal because the Board has the power to rework the plan if passed.

“The constitutional bylaws give that latitude to the Board of Directors,” Sylling said. “They can arrange (the plan) however they choose.”

Sylling said the NDHSAA constitution gives the Board authority over the plan if it is accepted today by a simple majority vote of the member schools.

The proposal – authored by several school administrators from across the state – calls for three divisions during the regular season and two state tournaments for basketball and volleyball.

But the consensus of the Board on Wednesday was that members would be asked to vote on the plan as it is written.

“I think in full good faith to our membership, we have to vote on what was on the plan,” Board member Jeff Fastnacht said. “I think, to some degree, we have to say we are sticking by the plan. You vote on the plan. If it goes down, it goes down. If it succeeds, I may not like it, but we’ll live with it.”

A key part of the proposal may need to be changed to sidestep litigation.

NDHSAA attorney Gary Thune told the Board he needed more statistical information before he could determine whether a 1.4 weighting scale for selected schools would be defensible in court.

The 1.4 scale means 1 student would count as 1.4 for a school’s enrollment. So a school that had 100 students would have a 140 enrollment number when the multiplier was applied.

The North Dakota plan would use the multiplier for Fargo Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Bismarck Shiloh Christian and Dickinson Trinity because they don’t enrollment borders.

Thune said in preliminary research he found several instances of states using weighted systems in high school athletics.

The scales range from 1.35 in Alabama and Missouri to 1.8 in Tennessee.

Tennessee has been involved in lengthy litigation over its weighted scale. Arizona has legislation prohibiting the use of multipliers and Nebraska has twice soundly defeated multipliers, Thune said.

“It’s no secret that the Northeast is not real crazy about this (3-class plan),” Board member Kirk Ham said. “They are tired of the question. The question has been asked. This will be the third time in five or six years. I think they’ve asked the question enough times and I think the membership has told us (no).”

If approved by members, the 3-class plan would be implemented in 2011-12 on a two-year experimental basis.

In other Board news:

- The 2011-12 football plan was approved 7-4.

The plan met resistance from Devils Lake, which has been moved up to the East Region of Class 3A, and Westhope/Newburg/Glenburn, which was moved to 9-man, Region 3 and will have endure lengthy bus trips.

- The NDHSAA Coaches Education Committee moved closer to refining a proposal that would require all coaches in grades 7-12 in North Dakota to receive a permit.

Coaches would need to complete required training in First Aid and safety, fundamentals of coaching and concussions to receive certification.

NDHSAA assistant to the executive secretary Matt Fetsch said North Dakota is one of only five states that do not require any certification for coaches.

“It’s something that has been talked about for awhile, but it’s now being looking into a little more seriously,” Fetsch said. “I think the reason it all kind of started is that so many coaches are off staff and are not educators. It continues with the education-based athletics model that we have.”

The committee would like to have the program approved for the 2012-13 school year.

- The football committee continues to explore the possibility of 6-man football to keep programs available for smaller communities in North Dakota.

Board member Todd Olson said about 10-20 schools indicated interest in 6-man football on a recent survey.

“We’re wondering, as the 9-man schools continue to get smaller and smaller, is 6-man football a good alternative to co-ops,” Olson said.

Olson said the possibility of adding 6-man football will likely come up for discussion in the next year as the next football plan is being put together.

[ClassBEast]

North Dakota 3-class proposal up for vote

Class B

Region 1
District 1
Maple Valley
Enderlin
North Sargent
Sargent Central
Milnor
Richland
Hankinson
Wyndmere-Lidgerwood
Fairmount-Campbell-Tintah

District 2
Strasburg/Zeeland
Napoleon
Central Prairie
Edgeley/Kulm
Ellendale
LaMoure
Litchville/Marion/Montpelier
Pingree/Buchanan/Kensal
Barnes Co. North

Region 2
District 3
Valley/Edinburg
Lakota/Adams/Edmore
Dakota Prairie
Warwick
New Rockford/Sheyenne
Midkota
Griggs Co.
Central Valley
Thompson

District 4
St. John
Rolla/Rock Lake
Rollette
Drake/Anamoose
Harvey
Wells Co.
Leeds/Maddock
North Star
Munich/Starkweather


Region 3
District 5
Beach
Scranton
New England
Hettinger
Richardton/Taylor
Glen Ullen/Hebron
Mott/Regent
Grant Co.
Flasher
Solen/Cannonball

District 6
New Salem
Center/Stanton
Washburn
Wilton/Wing
Underwood
Turtle Lake/Mercer
Garrison
Parshall
Mandaree

Region 4
District 7
Trenton
Grenora
Divide Co.
Burke Co.
Tioga
Kenmare
MLS
Trinity Christian
Ray

District 8
Berthold
Lewis & Clark-North Shore
Max
Our Redeemers
Glenburn
Westhope/Newburg
Velva
Sawyer
Towner/Granville/Upham

Class A

Region 1
District 1
Valley City
Oakes
Lisbon
Kindred
Central Cass

District 2
Oak Grove
Northern Cass
Hillsboro
May-Port-C-G
Finley-Sharon-Hope-Page

Region 2
District 3
Four Winds
Carrington
Midway-Minto
Larimore
Hatton-Northwood

District 4
Langdon
North Border
Grafton
Fordville-Lankin-Park River
Cavalier

Region 3
District 5
Linton/HMB
Fort Yates
Kidder Co.
South Border

District 6
Watford City
Killdeer
Heart River
Dickinson Trinity
Bowman Co.

Region 4
District 7
Hazen
Beulah
New Town
Stanley
Des Lacs/Burlington

District 8
Surrey
Bishop Ryan
Bottineau
Dunseith
Rugby

Class AA

East Region
Devils Lake
Fargo Davies
Fargo North
Fargo Shanley
Fargo South
Grand Forks Red River
Grand Forks Central
Valley City
Wahpeton
West Fargo

West Region
Mandan
Bismarck
Bismarck Century
Jamestown
Minot
Williston
Bismarck-St. Mary’s
Dickinson
Turtle Mountain-Belcourt

[ClassBEast]

I see Valley City is listed in both AA and A, so I'm not sure what the deal is with that. I got this info off of INFORUM.

[Run4Fun2009]

I see Valley City is listed in both AA and A, so I'm not sure what the deal is with that. I got this info off of INFORUM.

It would be Hotzler not proofreading his work...

[ndlionsfan]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

200 or less....your a B school....If your 205 then 5 have to move to the closest neighboring (brand new, or currently stable and sound) school with 195 or less...which is much closer than it is now.
Essentially there are no schools with enrollment between 200 K-12 (class B) and 1000 or more K-12 (class A).

This debuts all arguments from the crier's, that love to reign in on the 200 to 400 schools (or what they call "bigs"),claiming.......... unfairness............... isnt what this is a bout???

Still doesn't make any sense. I think you are talking more about high schools between 200 and 400, not K-12 enrollments. There are many many schools that have k-12 enrollments between 200 and 1000 students. Plus, what the heck are you thinking with your statement of limiting a school to an enrollment of 200 just because they are classified class b? If they grow a little bit over that they have to send those students off to another school? please enlighten me how you plan to force a certain numbers of kids to go to another school and how you're going to decide which students stay and which ones need to go.

[winner-within]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

200 or less....your a B school....If your 205 then 5 have to move to the closest neighboring (brand new, or currently stable and sound) school with 195 or less...which is much closer than it is now.
Essentially there are no schools with enrollment between 200 K-12 (class B) and 1000 or more K-12 (class A).

This debuts all arguments from the crier's, that love to reign in on the 200 to 400 schools (or what they call "bigs"),claiming.......... unfairness............... isnt what this is a bout???

Still doesn't make any sense. I think you are talking more about high schools between 200 and 400, not K-12 enrollments. There are many many schools that have k-12 enrollments between 200 and 1000 students. Plus, what the heck are you thinking with your statement of limiting a school to an enrollment of 200 just because they are classified class b? If they grow a little bit over that they have to send those students off to another school? please enlighten me how you plan to force a certain numbers of kids to go to another school and how you're going to decide which students stay and which ones need to go.

We had an English teacher in high school that had a usual reply to when we would say "that isn't fair" she would reply "I never claimed to be fair"

My point with all this...and you can see why I put being Fair and Unfairness in Bold is it would not matter if you used 200, 300, 400 etc etc....If the Ultimate Goal is to be fair to the "Little's" and keep the "bigs" at bay. then we have to go after enrollment.....not add classes....Is stupid....but so is three classes. So leave it alone!

Note: My school averaged 120 to 130 for over 65 years...K-12....ND dont change....that's why they keep trying to make a plan so lets make all the B schools within 25 students, the more schools the more attendance (cause more kids are participating) and Wa La! were right back to the good old days. Without a David and Goliath worry.

[scruffy]

The more proposals that are brought up, the more often it is voted down and the longer this goes on is very damaging to the NDHSAA. I question their competency.

[classB4ever]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

200 or less....your a B school....If your 205 then 5 have to move to the closest neighboring (brand new, or currently stable and sound) school with 195 or less...which is much closer than it is now.
Essentially there are no schools with enrollment between 200 K-12 (class B) and 1000 or more K-12 (class A).

This debuts all arguments from the crier's, that love to reign in on the 200 to 400 schools (or what they call "bigs"),claiming.......... unfairness............... isnt what this is a bout???

Still doesn't make any sense. I think you are talking more about high schools between 200 and 400, not K-12 enrollments. There are many many schools that have k-12 enrollments between 200 and 1000 students. Plus, what the heck are you thinking with your statement of limiting a school to an enrollment of 200 just because they are classified class b? If they grow a little bit over that they have to send those students off to another school? please enlighten me how you plan to force a certain numbers of kids to go to another school and how you're going to decide which students stay and which ones need to go.

We had an English teacher in high school that had a usual reply to when we would say "that isn't fair" she would reply "I never claimed to be fair"

My point with all this...and you can see why I put being Fair and Unfairness in Bold is it would not matter if you used 200, 300, 400 etc etc....If the Ultimate Goal is to be fair to the "Little's" and keep the "bigs" at bay. then we have to go after enrollment.....not add classes....Is stupid....but so is three classes. So leave it alone!

Note: My school averaged 120 to 130 for over 65 years...K-12....ND dont change....that's why they keep trying to make a plan so lets make all the B schools within 25 students, the more schools the more attendance (cause more kids are participating) and Wa La! were right back to the good old days. Without a David and Goliath worry.

After reading this, I have completely changed my stance. It is all so clear now. Screw the 3-class system, don't know if it will work anyway. 4 -class works in football but big deal. In 5 years we will be able to predict every team that goes to state, but who cares. I am with winner's English teacher. Who says we have to be fair!!!! While we are at it, let's have open transferring and let's pay the kids too.

[heimer]

Hey, I'll take it a step further. Lets collapse the system to one class. You only need one champion anyway. Fairness doesn't matter. Then, we will allow open recruiting for all schools, so that it's all on the coaching staff to determine wins and losses. That sounds much better than any worry about fairness.

[winner-within]

If your k through 12 is greater than 200 students you cant be in Class B or Class A.... lets demand new schools be built here and there.

These two statements don't make sense to me. What are you trying to say? You can only have a really small school or a really large school? OR do you mean less than 200 students?

200 or less....your a B school....If your 205 then 5 have to move to the closest neighboring (brand new, or currently stable and sound) school with 195 or less...which is much closer than it is now.
Essentially there are no schools with enrollment between 200 K-12 (class B) and 1000 or more K-12 (class A).

This debuts all arguments from the crier's, that love to reign in on the 200 to 400 schools (or what they call "bigs"),claiming.......... unfairness............... isnt what this is a bout???

Still doesn't make any sense. I think you are talking more about high schools between 200 and 400, not K-12 enrollments. There are many many schools that have k-12 enrollments between 200 and 1000 students. Plus, what the heck are you thinking with your statement of limiting a school to an enrollment of 200 just because they are classified class b? If they grow a little bit over that they have to send those students off to another school? please enlighten me how you plan to force a certain numbers of kids to go to another school and how you're going to decide which students stay and which ones need to go.

We had an English teacher in high school that had a usual reply to when we would say "that isn't fair" she would reply "I never claimed to be fair"

My point with all this...and you can see why I put being Fair and Unfairness in Bold is it would not matter if you used 200, 300, 400 etc etc....If the Ultimate Goal is to be fair to the "Little's" and keep the "bigs" at bay. then we have to go after enrollment.....not add classes....Is stupid....but so is three classes. So leave it alone!

Note: My school averaged 120 to 130 for over 65 years...K-12....ND dont change....that's why they keep trying to make a plan so lets make all the B schools within 25 students, the more schools the more attendance (cause more kids are participating) and Wa La! were right back to the good old days. Without a David and Goliath worry.

After reading this, I have completely changed my stance. It is all so clear now. Screw the 3-class system, don't know if it will work anyway. 4 -class works in football but big deal. In 5 years we will be able to predict every team that goes to state, but who cares. I am with winner's English teacher. Who says we have to be fair!!!! While we are at it, let's have open transferring and let's pay the kids too.

Most Small schools cooked their own Goose....but now we have to fix it for them so they can watch their kid who shouldn't be playing at state....Play at state! OH OK!!

[winner-within]

Hey, I'll take it a step further. Lets collapse the system to one class. You only need one champion anyway. Fairness doesn't matter. Then, we will allow open recruiting for all schools, so that it's all on the coaching staff to determine wins and losses. That sounds much better than any worry about fairness.

Oh I get it....your one of those who, all you had to say to your parents was "that isnt Fair" and you got you way....I'm sure this is tough for you.

[classB4ever]

winner within wrote: Most Small schools cooked their own Goose....but now we have to fix it for them so they can watch their kid who shouldn't be playing at state....Play at state! OH OK!!

winner, the above statement is precisely why I have a problem. You are stating by going to a 3-class system, inferior players and/or teams will be participating at state. Why? Inferior to who? The NBA, college, class A? It depends where you draw the line. They will be going to state because they are the best team/players at that level. If Cavalier makes it to the state championship game in football this year, since they are class A and not AAA, they shouldn't be there? Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

[winner-within]

winner within wrote: Most Small schools cooked their own Goose....but now we have to fix it for them so they can watch their kid who shouldn't be playing at state....Play at state! OH OK!!

winner, the above statement is precisely why I have a problem. You are stating by going to a 3-class system, inferior players and/or teams will be participating at state. Why? Inferior to who? The NBA, college, class A? It depends where you draw the line. They will be going to state because they are the best team/players at that level. If Cavalier makes it to the state championship game in football this year, since they are class A and not AAA, they shouldn't be there? Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Of course it makes sense...Cavalier won 48 games in a row (using them as an example because you did, not boasting) and three championships at AA when their enrollment was more inline with A Schools.....WHY??? because of the standards, the ethics, the culture, the heritage, the legacy....(see, these are all sports associated terms) and last but not least The program
Size (in this case or in Baketball in ND doesn't matter as much as the three party backers thinks it does....teach them how to play the sport....and take the ones who love playing it and play them....get the favorites off the floor and play the ones that should be playing....and half the battle is solved.

[classB4ever]

winner within wrote: Most Small schools cooked their own Goose....but now we have to fix it for them so they can watch their kid who shouldn't be playing at state....Play at state! OH OK!!

winner, the above statement is precisely why I have a problem. You are stating by going to a 3-class system, inferior players and/or teams will be participating at state. Why? Inferior to who? The NBA, college, class A? It depends where you draw the line. They will be going to state because they are the best team/players at that level. If Cavalier makes it to the state championship game in football this year, since they are class A and not AAA, they shouldn't be there? Your logic doesn't make sense to me.

Of course it makes sense...Cavalier won 48 games in a row (using them as an example because you did, not boasting) and three championships at AA when their enrollment was more inline with A Schools.....WHY??? because of the standards, the ethics, the culture, the heritage, the legacy....(see, these are all sports associated terms) and last but not least The program
Size (in this case or in Baketball in ND doesn't matter as much as the three party backers thinks it does....teach them how to play the sport....and take the ones who love playing it and play them....get the favorites off the floor and play the ones that should be playing....and half the battle is solved.

Your points are valid for any system and era, period. The good programs do that at all levels and always have. But no matter how much you follow that, you still will not compete with larger, bigger programs. So, where do you draw the line?
You didn't answer my question. If Cavalier makes it to the championship in football, are you saying they shouldn't be there because they are not AAA?