Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:14 pm

Scranton and Garrison are 263 miles apart in the same region. Beach and Garrison are 253 miles apart. Mandaree and Solen-Cannonball are 195 miles apart in the same region. I assume the regional tournament would be in Bismarck, 170 miles from Scranton and 160 from Beach and Mandaree.

Carrington and North Border are in the same region, 214 miles apart. I assume the regional tournament would be in Grand Forks, 145 miles from Carrington.

Watford City's district opponents are Killdeer (65 miles), Heart River (75), Trinity (95), and Bowman County (135). Their regional opponents are Shiloh Christian (195 miles), Kidder County (235 miles), Fort Yates (247 miles), Linton (255 miles), and South Border (300 miles). And again, if you put this regional tournament in Bismarck, you're making Watford City travel 195 miles. If you put it in Dickinson, you make South Border travel 205 miles and Linton travels 160.

When Dickinson hosts the current Region 7 tournaments, no team travels over 100 miles, and the gym is a packed house. You won't get this with the new plan.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:27 pm

And if your solution to the problem above is "Well, the A and B teams that are close in proximity can still play each other to save some miles..." then why are we splitting those schools into separate divisions in the first place???
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby digger » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:27 am

I'm going back to my question from the previous page: What are the problems? I remembered hearing Sherm Sylling on a newscast last winter state reasons for moving toward a 3 class system. Took a few minutes to go through a similar topic on ND Preps from last January and voila, here they are, January 27, 2009:
1. Overlapping seasons
2. Discrepancy in parity of play
3. Venue issues surrounding regional tournaments

Now I'm assuming that Sherm didn't go out and just let fly with the first things to come to mind, these must be the issues/ "problems" that the NDHSAA is attempting to address? I agree with classB4ever, the discrepancy in parity of play issue is emotional, it's primarily a "how does it affect me" thing. There will always be some emotion attached to this issue, my point is that we can remove some of the emotion and measure. We can use facts. Take a representative timeline, use a measurement (comparative records, district championships, regional berths, state berths) and see how the proposed smaller class schools compare to the middle class schools. Does this discrepancy in parity of play really exist or is it primarily an emotional argument? Have things changed in parity of play over the years or is it mainly perception, or perhaps changing attitudes toward what is considered fair/equal/equitable?
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:05 am

Well said.
How about if we set the time line to 10 years. Rather then going back to district and regional tournaments, for the sake of discussion let's just use state tournament appearances. Could anybody supply a list or a link to all state class b participants for the past 10 years? I have been unable to find that.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:18 am

classB4ever wrote:Well said.
How about if we set the time line to 10 years. Rather then going back to district and regional tournaments, for the sake of discussion let's just use state tournament appearances. Could anybody supply a list or a link to all state class b participants for the past 10 years? I have been unable to find that.


crap I used to have that list...let me see if I can find it
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:28 am

It's been posted in other topics discussing this issue. When I think back to when I played at state 10-15 years ago, we were always one of the smallest teams in our district and region but we never looked at it that way. It didn't matter who we played, we just looked at them as an opponent that we wanted to beat. We never thought of it as big school vs small school or had excuses along that line if we lost. We just went in to every game expecting to win. People have brought up that a lot of the problems posed are emotional issues because the people are using this small vs big as an excuse and that mentality is what is causing some of the smaller schools to not have success.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Thu Sep 23, 2010 10:51 am

1. If we are to believe that winning and making it to state are not the objectives of playing basketball, then we do not need any further discussion on this matter.
2. If we are to believe that everyone should get participation ribbons and not have tournaments, etc., then we do not need any further discussion on this matter.
3. If we are to believe that smaller schools should "pull up their panties and play", then I agree with Hinsa and we should just go to a 1 class system.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:35 am

2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 6)?
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:08 pm

Run4Fun2009 wrote:2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 6)?
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?


2010 - 3 small schools, 2 borderline, 3 bigs
2009 - 5 small, 2 borderline, 1 big
2008 - 3 small, 1 border, 4 big
2007 - 4 small, 2 border, 2 big
2006 - 5 small, 0 border, 3 big
2005 - 0 small, 1 border, 5 big the rest???
2004 - 3 small, 3 border, 1 big the other?
2003 - 3 small, 2 border, 3 big
2002 - 4 small, 0 border, 3 big the other?
2001 - 3 small, 2 border, 2 big the other?

Looks pretty balanced except for 2005. I put some schools borderline because they have been put in the middle class in some proposals and I didn't take the time to go see if they were middle class in the current proposal.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:11 pm

I know some people will bring up the fact that region 3 doesn't have any large schools in it and other regions only have 1-2. I think if you look at Region 1 which is split pretty evenly between the number of large and small schools you'll see that there's decent balance there as well. North Sargent, Hankinson, Richland, and Milnor have all came out of that region in the last 10 years.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:45 pm

1999-2010 State Teams (missing two from 2005 and one from 2001)

2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Standing Rock
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2000 - Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Center, Sheyenne/Minnewauken, Scranton, Park River, LMM, Watford City
1999 - Leeds, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Center, Lisbon, LMM, Hillsboro, Mandaree
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 12:59 pm

Still half are small schools with a couple on the cutoff and a couple bigs.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:15 pm

The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.

The boys' state championship games, in the last four years, have included Parshall, Turtle Lake-Mercer, Dakota Prairie, and Berthold.

Heck, if we adopt the new plan, what if there is a year when there are six real strong small schools? The new plan would keep two of them out of the state tournament, while under the current setup, all six could qualify.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:43 pm

digger wrote:I'm going back to my question from the previous page: What are the problems? I remembered hearing Sherm Sylling on a newscast last winter state reasons for moving toward a 3 class system. Took a few minutes to go through a similar topic on ND Preps from last January and voila, here they are, January 27, 2009:
1. Overlapping seasons
2. Discrepancy in parity of play
3. Venue issues surrounding regional tournaments

Now I'm assuming that Sherm didn't go out and just let fly with the first things to come to mind, these must be the issues/ "problems" that the NDHSAA is attempting to address? I agree with classB4ever, the discrepancy in parity of play issue is emotional, it's primarily a "how does it affect me" thing. There will always be some emotion attached to this issue, my point is that we can remove some of the emotion and measure. We can use facts. Take a representative timeline, use a measurement (comparative records, district championships, regional berths, state berths) and see how the proposed smaller class schools compare to the middle class schools. Does this discrepancy in parity of play really exist or is it primarily an emotional argument? Have things changed in parity of play over the years or is it mainly perception, or perhaps changing attitudes toward what is considered fair/equal/equitable?


Thanks Run4Fun for the list.
Here's some quick numbers for the 10 year time line. The original list was missing 5 teams, so was only working with 75 total participants and my numbers are ballpark due to some consolidations not on my list.

Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:57 pm

The new plan restricts small B schools to a 50% participation rate at the state tournament, when they have participated at a 56% rate in the past. Small schools are being short-changed by this new plan.

And there will be "big" and "small" schools in every plan, and you'd expect the bigs to have more success than the smalls in any plan. Minot High is going to make state more often than Devils Lake, for example.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:13 pm

Bisonguy06 wrote:Can we talk about travel under the new proposed plan?

If you support the current plan as is, you are supporting a plan that puts Watford City and South Border (Ashley-Wishek) in the same region. Watford City and Ashley are 300 miles apart, and only half of those miles are interstate.

I would assume the regional tournament would be held in Bismarck, 195 miles away from Watford City.

I chose the most extreme example to make a larger point: travel will increase substantially under the new plan. This costs time and money for schools and parents. You would also have to assume that attendance at games would decrease due to an increase in travel.

I'd be willing to drive the extra miles if this plan solved some huge competitive imbalance, but I am not seeing it. I think the problems created by this plan are much larger than the problems "solved" by this plan.


Travel is always going to be an issue in our state no matter how many classes there are. When they went to 4 classes in fball I'm sure that increased some travel as well. But in our current setup, I remember WTPR having to travel all the way to DL for a region tourney (175 miles) and Drake/Anamoose having to go all the way to Langdon for region tourney (150 or more miles).
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Bisonguy06 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 11:30 pm

No, you missed the whole point here. We put on enough miles in ND as it is. Now you want me to drive another hour to solve a competitive imbalance that doesn't exist? I'll pass.

Imagine being Beach High School. You already have to travel lots of miles, being on the Montana border. You have healthy, long-standing rivalries with Heart River, Trinity, Bowman, Killdeer and Watford City. These teams are no longer in your region or division. Instead, Garrison is in your region. Beulah, Hazen, Shiloh Christian and Kidder County are all closer than Garrison as well, but they aren't in your region or division, either. You figure it makes more sense to compete against your regional opponents, so you schedule a game at Garrison. You bypass Belfield and South Heart (the schools that make up Heart River), and drive roughly 200 more miles to Garrison on a frigid Saturday in January. Next year, it'll be their turn to come to you, but instead, Garrison makes a 263 mile trip to Scranton on a frosty February night in a game that ends at 10PM Central time. The Garrison fans who made the trip load up into a single Suburban and head home, arriving at 3AM.

The season progresses and Beach and Scranton both stop for lunch in Dickinson on their way to the regional in Bismarck on a school day. Both teams catch a glimpse of the gym in Dickinson where they would have played the regional tournament under the old plan. The bus continues to Bismarck, as the round trip for each school is 200 miles longer this year. Beach pummels Scranton in front of a sparse crowd and the Miners' season comes to an end.

The tournaments play out and Beach and Heart River load up their buses and drive to separate regional championship games in Bismarck. You make sure to wave to Heart River as you pass them on the interstate. You win your regional tournament, and so does Heart River. Your trip back to Beach gets delayed because you get stuck behind the caravan leading the Heart River Cougars into town with their own regional championship.

You're fortunate enough to advance to the state tournament, you make your way through the bracket, and you get matched up against Heart River, your former rival 40 miles down the road that was "too big" to play you during the regular season, but now all of the sudden is a fair matchup at the state tournament.

How foolish is this?

If there's truly a competitive issue in class B basketball, propose a real 3 class system instead of this "3 divisions, 2 tournaments" nonsense.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby BB11 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:48 am

Run4Fun2009 wrote:1999-2010 State Teams (missing two from 2005 and one from 2001)

2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Standing Rock
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2000 - Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Center, Sheyenne/Minnewauken, Scranton, Park River, LMM, Watford City
1999 - Leeds, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Center, Lisbon, LMM, Hillsboro, Mandaree


2005 - Divide County was one - not sure about Region 3 though
2001 - Flasher came out of Region 5
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:16 am

larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.


Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.

From looking at the numbers, I was slightly surprised to see the bigs didn't dominate more. But the numbers certainly prove it is not a myth.

As for the travel issues being discussed, it's all about districting. When I played ball 30 years ago, our high school team played two teams in the conference/district over 120 miles away. And in 3 years we never got to play our arch rival six miles away.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby bballfan7 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:29 am

BB11 wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:1999-2010 State Teams (missing two from 2005 and one from 2001)

2010 - Oak Grove, Cavalier, Kidder Cty, Carrington, Shiloh Christian, Beulah, Berthold, Mandaree
2009 - TL-M, Dakota Prairie, Linton, North Sargent, Bowman Cty, North Star, Berthold, Watford City
2008 - TL-M, LaMoure, Mott-Regent, Four Winds, Minot Ryan, Lisbon, Grafton, Watford City
2007 - Parshall, Four Winds, Hankinson, Shiloh Christian, BCN, Dickinson Trinity, North Border, Minot Ryan
2006 - Four Winds, Shiloh Christian, P-B-K, Parshall, Richland, MPCG, Minot Ryan, Dickinson Trinity
2005 - Central Cass, MPCG, New Rockford, Standing Rock, Bottineau, Dickinson Trinity, ??, ??
2004 - Milnor, Linton, Cavalier, New Rockford, Trenton, Shiloh Christian, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan
2003 - Shiloh Christian, Westhope-Newburg, Linton, New Rockford, Williston TC, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity
2002 - Berthold, Strasburg, Wells County, Mandaree, Kindred, MPCG, Dickinson Trinity, Standing Rock
2001 - Cando, Surrey, W-T-P-R, Trinity Christian, Oak Grove, North Border, Dickinson Trinity, (Region 5)?
2000 - Oak Grove, Minot Ryan, Center, Sheyenne/Minnewauken, Scranton, Park River, LMM, Watford City
1999 - Leeds, Dickinson Trinity, Minot Ryan, Center, Lisbon, LMM, Hillsboro, Mandaree


2005 - Divide County was one - not sure about Region 3 though
2001 - Flasher came out of Region 5


I'm pretty sure Linton Came out of Region 3 in 05
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:13 am

classB4ever wrote:
larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.


Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.

From looking at the numbers, I was slightly surprised to see the bigs didn't dominate more. But the numbers certainly prove it is not a myth.

As for the travel issues being discussed, it's all about districting. When I played ball 30 years ago, our high school team played two teams in the conference/district over 120 miles away. And in 3 years we never got to play our arch rival six miles away.



I already addressed this... Bigs are going to be overrepresented and smalls are going to be underrepresented in ANY plan, whether we have 1, 2, 3, or 10 classes.

If we pass the 3 class plan, I guarantee you that Valley City will make it to state more often than Bowman County. If you're one of the smaller schools in your class, you will always be at a slight disadvantage. But we don't live in a utopia. You will always have that.

When small schools are making up 56% of state tournament berths, you can't say that the current system is totally unfair or unreasonable to them. Big schools have a slight advantage, but not an unreasonable advantage. The numbers show this as well. Private schools have advantages as well, but their numbers are in decline and I don't think you're going to see the same level of dominance.

Not all of the small schools are in decline, either. The bedroom communities to the larger cities are growing. The western oil boom towns are growing.

The same system has worked for years with the populations constantly being in flux. It works. The talk of competitive imbalance has been a lot of noise without a whole lot of fact.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:53 am

larrybird33 wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
larrybird33 wrote:The idea that there is a competitive imbalance in class B basketball is a myth, pure and simple.


Bigs - 175 and up. 12.4% of Class B schools and 18.7% participation rate in state tournament.
Privates - 5.3% of Class B schools and 25.3% participation rate in state tournament.
Smalls - 82.3% of Class B schools and 56% participation rate in state tournament.

From looking at the numbers, I was slightly surprised to see the bigs didn't dominate more. But the numbers certainly prove it is not a myth.

As for the travel issues being discussed, it's all about districting. When I played ball 30 years ago, our high school team played two teams in the conference/district over 120 miles away. And in 3 years we never got to play our arch rival six miles away.



I already addressed this... Bigs are going to be overrepresented and smalls are going to be underrepresented in ANY plan, whether we have 1, 2, 3, or 10 classes.

If we pass the 3 class plan, I guarantee you that Valley City will make it to state more often than Bowman County. If you're one of the smaller schools in your class, you will always be at a slight disadvantage. But we don't live in a utopia. You will always have that.

When small schools are making up 56% of state tournament berths, you can't say that the current system is totally unfair or unreasonable to them. Big schools have a slight advantage, but not an unreasonable advantage. The numbers show this as well. Private schools have advantages as well, but their numbers are in decline and I don't think you're going to see the same level of dominance.

Not all of the small schools are in decline, either. The bedroom communities to the larger cities are growing. The western oil boom towns are growing.

The same system has worked for years with the populations constantly being in flux. It works. The talk of competitive imbalance has been a lot of noise without a whole lot of fact.


The numbers clearly justify the new plan and it gives a more fair representation. 50% bigs/privates and 50% smalls. I am going to use Dickinson Trinity and their region as an example. DT was dominant in the last decade. How many very good teams from that region did not make it to state because of their dominance? Who knows how well another team may have done once making it there and playing in the limelight? In this proposed plan, like teams are playing like teams and once at state all bets are off.
Please understand that I base my entire argument on the fact that making it to state is all that counts.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:07 pm

History shows that the current plan produces something pretty close to a 50/50 split between smalls and bigs/privates, with smalls actually earning 56% of state berths. No need to draw it up differently to produce the same result.

I don't think you'll ever see any class B team make it to seven straight state tournaments. It had never been done before, and I don't think it'll happen again.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:54 pm

Well, that's the beauty of these forums, we can agree to disagree and keep it civilized. The funny thing is, someone asked to verify an argument with facts. I believed by showing the percentages, it is clear there may be a small problem. However, people interpret numbers differently and can generally try to make them work for their case, no matter which side they are on. I guess that's why answers are not always easy to come by. Thanks and it's been fun.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:24 pm

Amen.
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