Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Sep 16, 2010 3:22 pm

I don't think this plan does anything either. I like the idea of 3 classes, but if they're not going to have 3 separate tournaments it's pointless.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby The Schwab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 10:55 am

scoobyx2 wrote:
Sportsrube wrote:I am not buying this new plan - How many times do the schools have to vote this 3 class plan down before it goes away. I understand that it may not be fair for a small school like Edgeley to compete with Valley City, but guess what - LIFE ISN"T FAIR! (If life was fair, we would all win the lottery) I disagree with how VC was put into Class B last year but the fact is - they didn't dominate in BB or VB. Us small schools need to put on our big boy/girl underpants and deal with it. Not everyone gets to play in a State Tournament - thats life, so deal with it.

It has just come down to trophies, and making sure everyone gets one to feel like a winner. (Do they give a trophy for 8th place at State? I remember when they didn't even play that game.) The people who complained that it wasn't fair to the kids of small schools who had to play VC have no problem letting VC kids drive an hour to play in a blowouts with Fargo South, North, or West Fargo. Even when VC lost in their post season play in VB and BB, small schools complained that they may eventually build a program that might beat them because their numbers are so big. Sad...


yes they do give out an 8th place trophy, the problem that I had with VC going class b was the way that the activities association went about it, but this isn't the point of this topic.

I am against a 3 class system, because our population distribution doesn't make sense for one, 20 years ago it would have. I honestly don't understand why people think we need a three class system, if someone could give me a good argument for one I could see having all of these proposals brought up, but as of now I just don't see the point.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby digger » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:14 pm

The Schwab wrote:I am against a 3 class system, because our population distribution doesn't make sense for one, 20 years ago it would have. I honestly don't understand why people think we need a three class system, if someone could give me a good argument for one I could see having all of these proposals brought up, but as of now I just don't see the point.


I'll join you in that thought Schwabby. As I've asked in other forums over the past year: What is the problem that is being fixed?
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Hinsa » Fri Sep 17, 2010 12:56 pm

The problem being fixed is Valley City - pure and simple.

If Valley City wasn't in such a bind for a competitive home, there would be no proposals on the table. Screw something up just to fix one school. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.

I realize i have a very cynical viewpoint on this, but I don't think I'm far from the truth.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby The Schwab » Fri Sep 17, 2010 3:17 pm

Hinsa wrote:The problem being fixed is Valley City - pure and simple.

If Valley City wasn't in such a bind for a competitive home, there would be no proposals on the table. Screw something up just to fix one school. Makes a lot of sense, doesn't it.

I realize i have a very cynical viewpoint on this, but I don't think I'm far from the truth.


So how does this fix them? I also agree that's what we are trying to fix, but why? They have far more kids per class then 70 percent of ND, why can they not field a competitive team? IMO there are some things that need to be resolved internally at VC before any plan that the NDHSAA can come up with would help them. Just my two cents.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Hinsa » Fri Sep 17, 2010 4:31 pm

Schwab - I completely agree with you. The fix would be letting VC drop to the smaller school class where they would be - in theory - more competitive.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Fri Sep 17, 2010 6:45 pm

In all reality, I think a 3 class plan could really benefit ND bball. That is if there is a set enrollment limit -before a school is allowed to co-op. If the board dissolved all co-ops and started everything over from scratch. Put an enrollment bottom line at 40 or 50 in HS. If a school is below that, they can co-op. I think it's tough for a lot of the schools with enrollments between 50-75 now to compete with the schools with 150 or more. A lot of those schools have 3 squads plus 2 JH teams where they can build their program but the smaller schools struggle to even have enough for a separate JV and JH. If all those schools were able to compete against each other by having 2 squads 7-12 they wouldnt need to co-op with a larger school or one the same size to compete against the big programs in the region. Of course this idea will never be a reality and therefore I don't think a 3 class plan will be a benefit.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby NDSportsFan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 2:02 pm

I don't like to toot my own horn, but....here is my post from Feb. 2, 2010 in the Boys BB forum:

"It seems that the reason nobody wants a three class system is because it will take away from the class B tournament. Here's my solution: Lets use Indy5's new format, but instead we use the Classes of A, and B. But lets divide class B into BI and BII, same class, different divisions. Alright now you have inter-division play so you can keep all your rivalry's intact. Have BI division advance 4 teams to the state tournament, and the BII advance 4 teams to the state tournament. Keep BI teams on the top bracket, BII teams on the bottom bracket guaranteeing a David/Goliath matchup for the one state championship, ala Hillsboro-Epping. Sell the viewing rights to ESPN. Everyones happy as a lark."

Look familiar? Apparently someone was paying attention!
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Flip » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:16 pm

Does anyone know of another state where they have seperate classes, or w/e you want to call them, but come state tourney time they compete against each other?

IMO the idea is stupid.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Sep 19, 2010 7:29 pm

I think Montana does something similar
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Mandan » Mon Sep 20, 2010 2:58 pm

I disagree that this is only because of Valley City. A lot of schools in the southwest part of the state have wanted three classes for a long time because of Trinity's boys runs to the state tournaments. I'm sure there are schools in other parts of the state that feel the same way. Wasn't the last vote on a three class system something like 87-70? You wouldn't have 70 schools voting for something if Valley City was the only problem.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:15 pm

The last 3 Region 7 boys champions have been Beulah, Bowman and Mott-Regent. On the girls' side, it has been Beach, Hazen and Bowman. If you look at the region objectively, it is very competitive and balanced. There isn't a Trinity "problem."

In fact, this whole proposal is a solution without a problem.

We don't have 16 -20 communities the size of Valley City to create a third class. Put them in A or in B, but don't re-draw an entire system for one school.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Sep 20, 2010 3:56 pm

But if you look at it, I think 4 out of those 5 teams would be in the middle class. I'm not 100% sure if Bowman has been in the middle class of the proposals. Maybe there is more of a competition gap between small and big.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby larrybird33 » Mon Sep 20, 2010 4:16 pm

Mott-Regent and Beach are small and Bowman County would be right on that bubble. Bowman County is headed for 9 man football next year, for what it's worth...
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby WarmBlooded » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:02 pm

I would almost guarentee that if VC was put in Region 1, with the likes of lison, central cass, oak grove..etc...other cities/towns that have a higher population that region 3, there would be no 3 class proposals and way less complaining. I think the NDHSAA is getting of the hook for screwing this up in the first place.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:35 pm

larrybird33 wrote:The last 3 Region 7 boys champions have been Beulah, Bowman and Mott-Regent. On the girls' side, it has been Beach, Hazen and Bowman. If you look at the region objectively, it is very competitive and balanced. There isn't a Trinity "problem."

In fact, this whole proposal is a solution without a problem.

We don't have 16 -20 communities the size of Valley City to create a third class. Put them in A or in B, but don't re-draw an entire system for one school.


Let's say we all decide that an even way to participate in sports would be playing against schools with up to 3 times your school's enrollment. If we started at the current highest school enrollment (9-12?) which is Minot at 1821 and divided by 3, the low cutoff line would be Jamestown at 757. The next closest would be Belcourt at 600. This would put 13 into Class AA. Since Shanley opts up, this gives them 14. Once again, dividing by 3, it takes us down to 200. With Belcourt on top at 600 and Lisbon at the bottom with 201. There are 16 schools between 600 and 200. The numbers I used were copied from a link in an older discussion on this topic. Wouldn't you agree that this would be more competitive and balanced?
To say this is all about Valley City may be right or it may be wrong. But to say that there are not any problems with our current system is being close-minded.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Hinsa » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:44 pm

classB4ever wrote:
larrybird33 wrote:The last 3 Region 7 boys champions have been Beulah, Bowman and Mott-Regent. On the girls' side, it has been Beach, Hazen and Bowman. If you look at the region objectively, it is very competitive and balanced. There isn't a Trinity "problem."

In fact, this whole proposal is a solution without a problem.

We don't have 16 -20 communities the size of Valley City to create a third class. Put them in A or in B, but don't re-draw an entire system for one school.


Let's say we all decide that an even way to participate in sports would be playing against schools with up to 3 times your school's enrollment. If we started at the current highest school enrollment (9-12?) which is Minot at 1821 and divided by 3, the low cutoff line would be Jamestown at 757. The next closest would be Belcourt at 600. This would put 13 into Class AA. Since Shanley opts up, this gives them 14. Once again, dividing by 3, it takes us down to 200. With Belcourt on top at 600 and Lisbon at the bottom with 201. There are 16 schools between 600 and 200. The numbers I used were copied from a link in an older discussion on this topic. Wouldn't you agree that this would be more competitive and balanced?
To say this is all about Valley City may be right or it may be wrong. But to say that there are not any problems with our current system is being close-minded.

So that would give one state championship to a division of 14 teams, and another state championship to a division of 16 teams. Whoopee. What a thrill. You beat out 13 or 15 other teams to win a state basketball championship. What a watered down title.

We don't need 3 classes!
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Wed Sep 22, 2010 12:50 pm

Hinsa wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
larrybird33 wrote:The last 3 Region 7 boys champions have been Beulah, Bowman and Mott-Regent. On the girls' side, it has been Beach, Hazen and Bowman. If you look at the region objectively, it is very competitive and balanced. There isn't a Trinity "problem."

In fact, this whole proposal is a solution without a problem.

We don't have 16 -20 communities the size of Valley City to create a third class. Put them in A or in B, but don't re-draw an entire system for one school.


Let's say we all decide that an even way to participate in sports would be playing against schools with up to 3 times your school's enrollment. If we started at the current highest school enrollment (9-12?) which is Minot at 1821 and divided by 3, the low cutoff line would be Jamestown at 757. The next closest would be Belcourt at 600. This would put 13 into Class AA. Since Shanley opts up, this gives them 14. Once again, dividing by 3, it takes us down to 200. With Belcourt on top at 600 and Lisbon at the bottom with 201. There are 16 schools between 600 and 200. The numbers I used were copied from a link in an older discussion on this topic. Wouldn't you agree that this would be more competitive and balanced?
To say this is all about Valley City may be right or it may be wrong. But to say that there are not any problems with our current system is being close-minded.

So that would give one state championship to a division of 14 teams, and another state championship to a division of 16 teams. Whoopee. What a thrill. You beat out 13 or 15 other teams to win a state basketball championship. What a watered down title.

We don't need 3 classes!


Above was to only prove that there are 16 teams in ND with like numbers to Valley City. Was not implying that those should be the classes.

So from my understanding of your above statement, you consider Class A to be a watered down system. There is a reason for change.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Hinsa » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:10 pm

If we absolutely had to make a change in North Dakota, I'd go to one class. Have big school sectionals and small school sectionals, and put 4 bigs and 4 smalls into the state tournament.

There was no high school tournament in the country more popular than the Indiana tournament because it was one class. Ever see Hoosiers? Granted, that doesn't happen very often, but when it does it is a win for the ages.

And I would say "A" IS watered down. Not the level of competition - it is very high - but the number of teams you have to beat to win a state title waters down the accomplishment. In ND there is no fix for that - there are only so many big schools. But don't water down the "B" any more than it already is by reducing the number of schools in B. We're losing schools the way it is.

I'll mention my original point - this noise about 3 classes is generated because of one school, and one school only - Valley City. We're going to screw things up becuase of one school. Woud I want to be Valley City - heck no. But they WILL drop to B in a few years anyway, so why try to fix a problem that will fix itself in a few years?
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Wed Sep 22, 2010 1:29 pm

And my point is to prove that there are some problems. To sit back and say that we don't have any problems with our current system, IMO, is being close minded. To sit back and mock/ridicule people that are willing to look to improve a current situation that could very well have some problems, IMO, is wrong. To sit back and say that there is no solution, so let's just leave it alone, IMO, is not acceptable. Just because something has worked for 30 years, doesn't mean it cannot be improved upon. That would be similar to teaching history for 30 years with the same book. If the solution were easy, I am guessing it would have been done. So, they continue to throw out ideas to see if there is an alternative. There is not anything wrong with that.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby digger » Wed Sep 22, 2010 3:30 pm

classB4ever wrote:And my point is to prove that there are some problems.


O.K. Let's start there. What are the problems? I'm not in favor of 3 classes in ND, I'll get that out there right up front. If we do have problems that need to be addressed let's state them clearly and see where we stand. However, let's do our best to eliminate the emotional trigger issues that seem to be brought up on a regular basis, ie: fairness, equality, private schools, recruiting, big town/little town. I'm not interested in changing the system based upon emotion or conjecture. In the words of that American hero Joe Friday, "All we want are the facts ma'am."
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby classB4ever » Wed Sep 22, 2010 4:52 pm

digger wrote:
classB4ever wrote:And my point is to prove that there are some problems.


O.K. Let's start there. What are the problems? I'm not in favor of 3 classes in ND, I'll get that out there right up front. If we do have problems that need to be addressed let's state them clearly and see where we stand. However, let's do our best to eliminate the emotional trigger issues that seem to be brought up on a regular basis, ie: fairness, equality, private schools, recruiting, big town/little town. I'm not interested in changing the system based upon emotion or conjecture. In the words of that American hero Joe Friday, "All we want are the facts ma'am."


Well, that would be nice. Let's see, a fact is information which is indisputable. My guess is that all of those problems have already been taken care of. Problems which have emotional triggers general occur because one group might see the problem one way and another group may see it in a different light. Who is right, who is wrong? Is there really a problem? Depends which side of the fence you are on. Is there a solution so both sides are happy? Perhaps.
1. If I were to live in one of the top 5 class b towns in enrollment size, there would be no problems with the current system. If I were to live in one of the smallest class b towns, I might see it differently. One side says, "Pull up your panties and live with it". The other side says, "Why don't you move up and play against class A schools and see how you like it"? Problem? Fact? Emotional trigger?
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Indy5 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 7:36 pm

classB4ever wrote:
Well, that would be nice. Let's see, a fact is information which is indisputable. My guess is that all of those problems have already been taken care of. Problems which have emotional triggers general occur because one group might see the problem one way and another group may see it in a different light. Who is right, who is wrong? Is there really a problem? Depends which side of the fence you are on. Is there a solution so both sides are happy? Perhaps.
1. If I were to live in one of the top 5 class b towns in enrollment size, there would be no problems with the current system. If I were to live in one of the smallest class b towns, I might see it differently. One side says, "Pull up your panties and live with it". The other side says, "Why don't you move up and play against class A schools and see how you like it"? Problem? Fact? Emotional trigger?

I associate with a middle sized Class B school so I don't know which side of the fence I'm on in that perspective. But, I do know that I'm on the side of the fence that says, "Nut up and deal with it." I say that to the small schools. I feel as though Valley City does belong in Class B. I don't like to hear the precedent stuff about Grafton and Beulah. I see those as past mistakes, and I think we should learn from them. When schools are right at the cutoff, obviously dropping in a couple years, and do not compete anymore, they should be allowed to drop if they are around 375 or 400. That is just my honest opinion.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Sep 22, 2010 8:48 pm

Yeah, but what do the folks in Sawyer think about competing against a large school in the 4th largest city in the state? Differing opinions depending on where you live. I'm one the fence about a 3 class plan as I can see the argument both ways. To be honest, I'd rather see 3 classes through district and regions, but have one large super state tournament and only crown one champion in ND.
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Re: Yet another 3-class proposal (BB & VB only)

Postby Bisonguy06 » Wed Sep 22, 2010 10:55 pm

Can we talk about travel under the new proposed plan?

If you support the current plan as is, you are supporting a plan that puts Watford City and South Border (Ashley-Wishek) in the same region. Watford City and Ashley are 300 miles apart, and only half of those miles are interstate.

I would assume the regional tournament would be held in Bismarck, 195 miles away from Watford City.

I chose the most extreme example to make a larger point: travel will increase substantially under the new plan. This costs time and money for schools and parents. You would also have to assume that attendance at games would decrease due to an increase in travel.

I'd be willing to drive the extra miles if this plan solved some huge competitive imbalance, but I am not seeing it. I think the problems created by this plan are much larger than the problems "solved" by this plan.
Last edited by Bisonguy06 on Wed Sep 22, 2010 11:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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