3-class system - here we go again.

A place for all other topics related to North Dakota high schools, and athletics.
Forum rules
Please do not post just to complain about players, coaches, teams, officials, fans, or anyone else. Lets all try to demonstrate the spirit of good sportsmanship. Posts may be edited or deleted that do not comply.

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 2:29 pm

Food for thought:

http://gazprepsports.com/blog/?p=405

A sportswriter from Billings, MT thinks that we're getting it right with our two class basketball system in North Dakota.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby steve34 » Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:02 pm

I can agree that the B boys and girls both shouldn't be played in GF or Fargo, but not for the reasons stated most commonly.

The fact is that, when the dome has had a B boys tourney, they've done a great job with it, at least as of late. They do an awesome job with wrestling also. I think the Alerus, given a chance, can do well with the event also.

The atmosphere is not the problem. The travel really isn't either, although I can understand the argument for the western schools. But the fans should love getting to Fargo and GF once in a while. The problem is that the communities in the east don't by into the Class B aura like they do to the west. It seems like that old school B atmosphere catches fire somewhere west of HWY 281. East of there, the state just has too much good basketball to offer throughout the year, and fans aren't impressed with what the B product has to offer.

It takes some openmindedness to understand this, but in many ways, the A game has surpassed the B game. The intensity of the games, the athleticism, the physicality, the shot clock, all make it a better product. I see as much B as I do A, and hands down, if I'm buying a ticket to go see a game I don't have to be at, and I'm choosing a B or an A, no matter the arena, I'm choosing the A game. It's better. It's more entertaining. People in the east generally think that way. We don't even see good crowds at the Region I tourney at the Civic anymore. The college game and the A game have changed the tastes of the fan.

This is precisely why I have a problem with the blanket statement, "The State B is the best show in the state." That used to be a fact. Now, it's an arguable opinion. Sure, we can throw around attendance numbers, but I want trends. Numbers speak chapters, trends speak volumes. I believe the fastest growing, maybe the only growing, event the HSAA has is the Dakota Bowl. And, keep in mind, that has four classes, not two. ;)

So, that's the long answer. The short answer: Sure, we can agree to keep the B girls and boys out of the RRV. I think working Jamestown in would be a good thing, because just rotating between Minot and Bismarck can get awfully boring.
steve34
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:00 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby coachh » Fri Mar 06, 2009 11:40 pm

larrybird33 wrote:Food for thought:

http://gazprepsports.com/blog/?p=405

A sportswriter from Billings, MT thinks that we're getting it right with our two class basketball system in North Dakota.


That blog is a year old. That sportswriter must have left ND quite a while ago because there are plenty of statements he makes that are no longer true. One example is that Wednesday practices at the tourney site have been prohibited by the NDHSAA for quite a few years now.

If you read that whole thread, you'll see more than a couple comments that would support a 3-class system in both states (which would be a reduction in classes in MT).
coachh
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 18
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 8:08 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:10 am

Steve, I guess I'd argue that the class A product has ALWAYS been better than the class B product. I have seen plenty of class A ball in my day. I think it's all about size, speed, and athleticism and it has very little to do with a shot clock. I'd have no problem with class B adding a shot clock, but I don't think that in itself would cure class B basketball. I'm certainly open-minded enough to see that the A game is better. I have a hard time buying the argument that it has ever been any different than that.

What makes the 'B' special is the small town atmosphere, the attitude where a state qualifying town shuts down for a weekend and everyone makes the trip. I don't think we've lost that. And a three class system would only reduce the amount of talent and the amount of interest in the bottom class. If you think the bottom class is slipping now, the three class system would only make it worse.

By the way, in the year of the "three class system gaining momentum," we have an all small school class B girls championship game.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:25 am

I guess I do need to clarify that last statement:

The NDHSAA plan lists Park River and Fordville-Lankin as separate entities. Maybe they do not co-op for boys basketball, I'm not sure. As separate entities, they are small schools. If you combine enrollments, that would push them to the middle division in a three class system.

I stand by my main point that the small schools have had plenty of success in class B girls basketball this year.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby steve34 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:06 am

You have a point about the smallest class slipping under a three division plan. I still favor changing the system though, even if not on a three division basis. Expanding A would re-energize so much. A would become more competitive. B would see new life in some of it's smallest schools.
steve34
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:00 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby steve34 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 11:41 am

I might add that, with North and West Fargo playing a state qualifier in the EDC today, we are guaranteed at least one team with a losing record in the state tourney. North would advance at 8-14, or West Fargo would advance at 10-12. If Red River upsets Central, half the girls EDC field would have sub .500 records. We need to expand A!
steve34
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:00 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:12 pm

Out of curiosity, I looked up the next 10 largest schools to see what your top 28 would look like.

You'd have the 18 current class A schools, including Valley City (they'd no longer get to move down).

The next 10 are:
Grafton
Bottineau
Central Cass
Beulah
Standing Rock
Hazen
New Town
Lisbon
Rugby
Carrington

Out west, two of these seven would make state: Bismarck, Century, Mandan, Williston, Dickinson, Minot, and Belcourt.

And two of these seven would make state: Bottineau, Beulah, Standing Rock, Hazen, New Town, Bismarck St. Mary's, and Rugby

Out east, two of these seven would make state: Fargo North, Fargo South, West Fargo, Grand Forks Red River, Grand Forks Central, Jamestown, and Devils Lake

And two of these seven would make state: Wahpeton, Fargo Shanley, Valley City, Grafton, Carrington, Central Cass, and Lisbon

That would sure be an interesting new wrinkle in class A. The old North Star schools would be back in. I'm not sure that any of the top 28 schools would back this plan, though. I think they'd kind of look out for their own interests and say no to any plan that made it more difficult for them to get to state.

I'm bored and I like this better than the three class plan, so I thought I'd throw it out there and let people take a look.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby steve34 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:21 pm

You're pretty close, but you have to factor in the new school in Fargo, Davies. They would be in the top division.

When I looked at enrollments, I had it figured like this (enrollments in parenthesis):

East Division I: West Fargo (1588) Fargo North (1200) Grand Forks Red River (1199) Grand Forksn Central (1072) Jamestown (806)South (763) Davies (762) (South and Davies estimated)

East Division II: Devils Lake (580) Wahpeton (500) Valley City (371) Shanley (304) Grafton (275) Central Cass (260) Lisbon (223)

West Division I: Minot High (1846) Bismarck High (1440) Bismarck Century (1072) Mandan (1037) Dickinson (900) Williston (727) TMCHS (610)

West Division II: Bismarck St. Mary's (344) Bottineau (281) Beulah (265) Hazen (243) Carrington (226) Rugby (216) New Town (208)
steve34
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:00 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 3:41 pm

That's not bad... as soon as we scrap the 3 class idea, someone can propose this.

I could also support it being the top 32 schools. 32 is a good, even number at tournament time. You could throw in Standing Rock and Kindred (mid-sized schools that are growing) on the bottom end, and you might have new high schools in Bismarck and West Fargo in the next decade.

I just wonder if ANY of the top 28 or 32 will support this plan.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby steve34 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 4:50 pm

I'd be surprised if more than 5 did. VC would. I think Wahp, Shanley, and St. Mary's would. But the idea here is go let the small school vote outweigh the large school vote. Or, since the board makes the decision, let the small schools support the plan long enough for the board to vote in favor of it.

BTW, Red River upset Central in the EDC girls today. Two teams with losing records will advance to the State A girls.
steve34
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 315
Joined: Tue Sep 09, 2008 8:00 am

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 07, 2009 5:56 pm

Interesting.

I do think this would be a VERY tough sell. None of the top 14 schools would like it, and I bet the majority of North Dakotans send their kids to one of those top 14 schools. I also think that schools 21-28 would see this as a death sentence, as far as having a chance of winning a state championship. Take a school like Hazen that has never been in the top division, or take a school like Grafton that has had some success after moving down. They'll hate this plan.

Then again, the board can do what it wants. That's the thing I fear most about this 3 class plan. I think they're going to ignore the majority and implement it.

I favor the current system with some redistricting. I've talked plenty about the success of the small class B schools. Small class A schools have had plenty of success this year, too. Look at the Wahpeton boys and the Devils Lake girls making the EDC championship game out east, and the Belcourt girls and St. Mary's boys have been very competitive out west.

Valley City seems to be the one small class A school that cannot get their programs turned around and no one seems to know what to do with them.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sat Mar 14, 2009 3:31 pm

With the class B boys, we have at least five "small" class B schools that have qualified for the state tournament. By "small," I am referring to schools that would play in the lowest class in a three class system.

Dakota Prairie, Berthold, Turtle Lake-Mercer, and North Star are in, along with the Region 3 champion (Linton or Central Prairie).

North Sargent would make it 6 if they beat Central Cass tonight.

Watford City and Bowman County are the only bigs to qualify, and Bowman County would be right on that bubble in a three class system. Their boys have not been to state since 1981.

Some of you will be happy to find that the state B boys tournament will not include a private school this year. There were no private schools in the girls' tournament, either.

Again, where is this competitive problem that we supposedly have in class B basketball? Six small schools made the girls' state tournament, and at least five made it to the boys' tournament. Don't buy all of these arguments made based on myths and emotions. Look at the facts, people!
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 3:14 am

North Sargent won. Six out of eight are small schools.

And if the final ends up being anything other than Watford City vs. Bowman, it will mark the third year in a row that a small school has made it to the championship game.

If it isn't broken, don't fix it.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Sun Mar 15, 2009 5:47 pm

this year is the exception not the rule...........one of the few years in basketball that small schools have outgunned the big ones
luvmy3gbb1wr
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:01 am
Location: North Dakota USA

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ndlionsfan » Sun Mar 15, 2009 6:15 pm

Most of the years it is almost dead even between big and small teams....at most a 5-3 split either way. I'll give you the fact that it is not normally 6-2 either way, but most of the time there are no more big schools than small in the tournament.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
User avatar
ndlionsfan
NDPreps Legend
 
Posts: 4088
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2007 8:36 am
Location: Central ND

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Sun Mar 15, 2009 11:05 pm

Uh... the 2009 girls' tournament had 6 small schools and 2 bigs.

This isn't that rare.

I do agree that it's probably 5 and 3, 4 and 4, or 3 and 5 in most years.

Still, in any of those scenarios, it's not lopsided in favor of the bigs. A good small school can compete in class B just the way it is.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby NorthDakota11 » Mon Mar 16, 2009 1:43 pm

Everything Larry Bird says makes sense... but you should be getting some sleep!!! 4 o'clock in the morning is a little early to be posting... I'm understanding a little bit now why you are so easily agitated about things! hahaha

What this three class system decision comes down to is our society having the belief today that every kid deserves a trophy. Why has sports always been such a character builder for high school students? because in my mind it teaches us that we don't always win... life isn't fair... these life lessons build character... life isn't all roses...

Yes, bigger schools will more consitently have good teams... but take this year as an example... The smaller schools are winning the numbers game in both "B" tournaments and who isn't looking forward to the possible David vs. Goliath matchups every year in the state tournament... Don't water down TWO classes to just give more kids the opportunity to "win"

North Dakota is absolutely on fire this week about NDSU's David vs. Goliath matchup with the University of Kansas.... Kansas has about 30,000 students and 100,000 thousands of alumi and NDSU has 12,000-14,000(Not sure)... Kansas has a WAY bigger fan base... BUT... NDSU will travel better and have close to 20,000 fans there game time (basically will be a home game atmosphere for the Bison)... Similar to what happens at State B boys basketball... Towns empty for a chance to see their boys knock of one of the Goliath's... don't kill one of the best things ND sports has had going for 60+ years... Anyone remember Epping vs. Hillsboro? Doesn't happen with three classes...
"Why did you go for two?"

"Because I couldn't go for three..." - Woody Hayes
NorthDakota11
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Williston, ND

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby rock83 » Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:25 pm

epping lost! How would you like to be hebron? Dickinson Trinity, Hazen, Beulah, Bowman County. What is Hebron and other schools chance?

NorthDakota11 wrote:Everything Larry Bird says makes sense... but you should be getting some sleep!!! 4 o'clock in the morning is a little early to be posting... I'm understanding a little bit now why you are so easily agitated about things! hahaha

What this three class system decision comes down to is our society having the belief today that every kid deserves a trophy. Why has sports always been such a character builder for high school students? because in my mind it teaches us that we don't always win... life isn't fair... these life lessons build character... life isn't all roses...

Yes, bigger schools will more consitently have good teams... but take this year as an example... The smaller schools are winning the numbers game in both "B" tournaments and who isn't looking forward to the possible David vs. Goliath matchups every year in the state tournament... Don't water down TWO classes to just give more kids the opportunity to "win"

North Dakota is absolutely on fire this week about NDSU's David vs. Goliath matchup with the University of Kansas.... Kansas has about 30,000 students and 100,000 thousands of alumi and NDSU has 12,000-14,000(Not sure)... Kansas has a WAY bigger fan base... BUT... NDSU will travel better and have close to 20,000 fans there game time (basically will be a home game atmosphere for the Bison)... Similar to what happens at State B boys basketball... Towns empty for a chance to see their boys knock of one of the Goliath's... don't kill one of the best things ND sports has had going for 60+ years... Anyone remember Epping vs. Hillsboro? Doesn't happen with three classes...
rock83
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 154
Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:13 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:55 am

[quote="rock83"]epping lost! How would you like to be hebron? Dickinson Trinity, Hazen, Beulah, Bowman County. What is Hebron and other schools chance?

You're right, that's a tough region. However, last year's Mott-Regent boys won the region that you are referring to.
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby scruffy » Wed Mar 18, 2009 8:48 am

Very few want it, and almost everyone agrees it won't do much good but trust me a three class system is coming. The NDHSAA has decided it's time and I don't think they care about any concensus... That was the feeling most coaches and AD's had after the recently held forum.
No whiners allowed! The journey is the reward!
scruffy
NDPreps All-State
 
Posts: 779
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2006 5:10 pm
Location: dickinson, , USA

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby NorthDakota11 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 9:53 am

Epping lost... you're right they did... in arguably the greatest Class B Championship game of all time! The point I was trying to make and its being made again this year with the Tournament teams... Small schools can compete... Epping had I think 7 boys in their whole school that year... And they made it to the State CLASS B Championship game... Would what they did be as remembered if they were playing in a tournament with a bunch of schools that would fit the "SMALL SCHOOL" Label? Oh wait... thats this years class B tournament... TLM (A favorite) has 61 I think... and there are 5 other schools that would fit the "small school" definition... so I guess nothing needs to be changed...

There are always going to be small schools and you dimish what schools like Epping would do in the future if you make it three classes... heck what it comes down to is people wanting there to be 8 more teams in a state tournament so its more Fair... so why don't we just play one more round at neutral sites... loser out games... and we get our final 8 from that? Media and coaches make the "at-Large" Selections for the extra eight... I know this isn't a solution... but in my opinion its way better then three classes... and the whiners get what they want... partially
"Why did you go for two?"

"Because I couldn't go for three..." - Woody Hayes
NorthDakota11
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 117
Joined: Tue Mar 13, 2007 8:26 am
Location: Williston, ND

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Wed Mar 18, 2009 2:07 pm

scc wrote:I think they're being met with too much resistance. The two-class system is here to stay.


sorry, agree with scruffy.....resistance or not, it's coming. NDHSAA doesn't care what its member schools think.....they have always done what they wanted. Once VC got what they wanted (to move down, so they can dominate :lol: ) the 3 class became inevitable. You know, everyone screamed about how the FB's 4 classes was going to ruin ND football. It hasn't.....and I don't think 3 classes will ruin basketball. You want to have two classes, put VC back in the A division.
luvmy3gbb1wr
NDPreps All-Conference
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:01 am
Location: North Dakota USA

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 4:15 pm

luvmy3gbb1wr wrote:
scc wrote:I think they're being met with too much resistance. The two-class system is here to stay.


sorry, agree with scruffy.....resistance or not, it's coming. NDHSAA doesn't care what its member schools think.....they have always done what they wanted. Once VC got what they wanted (to move down, so they can dominate :lol: ) the 3 class became inevitable. You know, everyone screamed about how the FB's 4 classes was going to ruin ND football. It hasn't.....and I don't think 3 classes will ruin basketball. You want to have two classes, put VC back in the A division.


I agree with that wholeheartedly. Keep class B the way and correct the mistake of moving VC to class B!
larrybird33
NDPreps Starter
 
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 3:09 pm

Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby tdog09 » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:02 pm

This year's state tournament is a perfect example of why we don't need 3 classes. 6 out of 8 teams would be in class B while 2 would be in A. also in SW ND only 3 schools (Trinity,Bowman, and Hazen) would be big enough to host a class B regional, at the same time, class A, their class, is having their state tournament. Are those schools going to commit in advance to host a B regional when there's a chance that their team is at state? People also say that 3 classes will allow more teams to go to state, but at the same time, the prestige of going to the "B" is lost. I think that if they are going to go to 3 classes, that Class AA and A will have only 4 teams each go to state, kind of like the Final Four. it's not fair that half of the highest class get to go to state while only 10% of the lowest class would.
User avatar
tdog09
NDPreps Reserve
 
Posts: 41
Joined: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:21 pm
Location: North Dakota

PreviousNext

Return to Hot Topics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 9 guests