3-class system - here we go again.

[BB11]

Digger, are you...... Dennis Miller?
Good post

[digger]

However, Townsend said he is in favor of the change.

“I think it’s just equity amongst the schools,” said Townsend, whose program would be one of the smallest in the new B Division with an enrollment of about 85 in grades 9-12.

“These smaller schools are starting to hurt for numbers. … I think (three divisions) will (become reality).”

Also the athletic director at Fairmount High School, Townsend said his and other small schools in North Dakota have been limited due to declining enrollment.

F-C-T has projected declining numbers for students out for athletics each year through 2015, Townsend said.

“We don’t have much to work with in practice,” he said. “My assistant and I have had to jump in to practices to give our girls a different look. On the boys team, we’ve had to pull up 7th and 8th graders to our junior varsity.”

I thank Mr. Townsend for making my point for me. Small schools starting to hurt for numbers you say? A declining number of students out for athletics? 7th and 8th graders being pulled up to Junior Varsity? A simple yet serious question must follow: How will a 3 class system fix this? It won't. Still be hurting for numbers, their projections will remain the same, and the same 7th and 8th graders will still be pulled up to JV. They are still going to be competing against teams that will never even have to consider pulling up middle school kids to fill out a roster. I completely understand the issue of declining enrollments, this is why co-ops and consolidations are necessary. Economics demand it. Good schools are expensive. Athletics and other extracurriculars are a drain, necessary but a drain. The proposed 3-class system will not solve FCT's (or any other schools) problems.

[scruffy]

This is a done deal. Glance through my posts above and you can quickly pick up my thoughts on the subject. The light bulb finally went on last night. When it became obvious to those who wanted this (three class system) that it did not have popular support and would not happen through the existing procedure things started happening: 1) Keep the issue alive by constantly revisiting it, it must be good and true if it keeps coming up right? (see my post above): 2) Get the word out that there is a large disparity in competitive balance (Turtle Lake and Parshall notwithstanding, not to mention BCN, Richland, North Sargent, Steele-Dawson, etc), repeat this over and over without citing facts; 3)Crank up the heat by putting Valley City into Class B and then in a mind numbingly illogical twist, put them in District 5 instead of District 2 Region 1 where they would actually fit. "This can't be, something must be done, Valley City will be the scourge of Class B".; 4) Finally, oh by the way, the bylaws are changing, the board can now regulate basketball without a vote by the whole membership. No fuss, no mess.
Lest you think I'm a grumpy old man who sits on my front porch and yells at the neighborhood kids to get off my lawn, while yearning for the good old days of milkmen, drive-ins, sock hops, and cap guns, resistant to any change; I'm not. Well, maybe a little. Just been around the dance floor a few times.

It's sad when they go against the majority and do what they want to do. I don't think they remember who they're working for...

[rock83]

Do you not realize that the three class system will help. the reason it will help is the bottom division will be full of teams and schools that have the same issues with enrollment. So instead of playing against school with 240 students they will now play against teams with enrollments of around 80.That is huge. It isnt a class b tourney any more anyway. Its dickinson trinity vs oak grove, minot ryan vs standing rock, Langdon vs lisbon, etc

However, Townsend said he is in favor of the change.

“I think it’s just equity amongst the schools,” said Townsend, whose program would be one of the smallest in the new B Division with an enrollment of about 85 in grades 9-12.

“These smaller schools are starting to hurt for numbers. … I think (three divisions) will (become reality).”

Also the athletic director at Fairmount High School, Townsend said his and other small schools in North Dakota have been limited due to declining enrollment.

F-C-T has projected declining numbers for students out for athletics each year through 2015, Townsend said.

“We don’t have much to work with in practice,” he said. “My assistant and I have had to jump in to practices to give our girls a different look. On the boys team, we’ve had to pull up 7th and 8th graders to our junior varsity.”

I thank Mr. Townsend for making my point for me. Small schools starting to hurt for numbers you say? A declining number of students out for athletics? 7th and 8th graders being pulled up to Junior Varsity? A simple yet serious question must follow: How will a 3 class system fix this? It won't. Still be hurting for numbers, their projections will remain the same, and the same 7th and 8th graders will still be pulled up to JV. They are still going to be competing against teams that will never even have to consider pulling up middle school kids to fill out a roster. I completely understand the issue of declining enrollments, this is why co-ops and consolidations are necessary. Economics demand it. Good schools are expensive. Athletics and other extracurriculars are a drain, necessary but a drain. The proposed 3-class system will not solve FCT's (or any other schools) problems.

[larrybird33]

Top ten reasons why the three class system is a bad idea:

10) If you add a new class, you're adding another set of regional and state tournaments into an already crowded March calendar. Casual fans will not be able to follow all three classes of basketball. Crowds will shrink.

9) Three wrongs don't make a right. Valley City should not have been moved to Class B. The NDHSAA moved the enrollment cut-off for exactly one school, and they did it because that school is in their own backyard. The NDHSAA never moved the goalposts for Beulah or Grafton when they were the small A schools. Valley City got home cookin'. To make matters worse, they were placed in a district that included some of the state's smallest schools. The three class plan is being used to "correct" other NDHSAA mistakes. I have an idea: don't screw it up in the first place.

8) Travel issues. North Dakota is a big state and the new regions would stretch too far. It'd be 180 miles from Bismarck to Bowman for an in-region game. It's even farther from Fargo Oak Grove to Linton. Linton's volleyball region would include Fargo Oak Grove, Fargo Shanley, Kindred, and Central Cass. They'd have to make two of those road trips every year. The NDHSAA used to care about how much school a high school athlete would miss. I guess that has been thrown out the window. And I know that a school like Williston already logs as many miles. But why should we put a bunch of other schools in the same boat?

7) Enrollments are dropping and schools are consolidating and folding left and right. This will continue as far as the eye can see. How can you add classes when you are losing schools?

6) Member schools have voted this thing down multiple times by overwhelming majorities. Shouldn't the majority get to decide this one? Isn't that kinda how we do things in America? How arrogant is the NDHSAA if they think they know this issue better than the majority?

5) There will always be "big" and "small" schools within every class, no matter how many classes you create.

4) Private schools don't target athletes for recruitment. Get over it. If you look at the successful Trinity, Ryan, and Oak Grove teams of the past few years, you will find that virtually all of their athletes have been home-grown, K-12 products. Now Linton on the other hand...

3) The Class B boys tournament is the premiere sporting event in the state of North Dakota. Under the three class system, it won't draw half as much fanfare. Ask a South Dakotan what a three class system has done to their tournaments. They don't have anything that compares to the ND "B" tournament atmosphere.

2) Tiny Turtle Lake-Mercer reached the 2008 boys' Class B championship game. Tiny Parshall won the 2007 boys' Class B championship. The Bottineau girls have been dominant on the girls' side, but they have played several small to medium sized schools on their way to consecutive titles. Don't tell me that the landscape has changed so much that a small school can't compete in class B!

1) It's not broken. Don't "fix" it.

[ndlionsfan]

I agree with all of your points except #10. The way the board words it, the boys and girls regionals and state will be held at the same venue. Two different days will be used for the quarterfinals (one night boys another night girls), then the semis and the finals the boys and girls will be played on the same night, alternating games. This will cut down a bit on the March schedule I think.

[scruffy]

I agree with all of your points except #10. The way the board words it, the boys and girls regionals and state will be held at the same venue. Two different days will be used for the quarterfinals (one night boys another night girls), then the semis and the finals the boys and girls will be played on the same night, alternating games. This will cut down a bit on the March schedule I think.

Agree! We'll call it the top nine reasons! Again, I wish the NDHSAA would remember who they work for.

[larrybird33]

I agree that #10 is the weakest point. Let's see if I can re-state it to make more sense.

Class B regional and state tournaments thrive on the "casual fan" who has some distant connection to a small town team that is competing. I'm worried that you're going to lose some of these casual fans if you break up the B into two classes and their seasons overlap.

[NDSportsFan]

That makes a lot of sense. The state tournaments loose their appeal if you water them down.

[ClassBEast]

McFeely has a good blog on the topic with lots of comments by readers to explore...

http://www.areavoices.com/mcfeely/

[scoobyx2]

McFeely has a good blog on the topic with lots of comments by readers to explore...

http://www.areavoices.com/mcfeely/

Great blog! In Class B, many small schools have strong traditions in winning or producing great players. In Region 1 girls basketball, Central Cass, Oak Grove, and Lison have always been the big schools, but smaller schools like Maple Valley and Lidgerwood are always a threat, and probably have had more All-Staters and Class B All-stars than any of the "big" schools. I would hate to see that tradition ruined.

[NDSportsFan]

There are going to be input meetings at these times and places:

Regional Administrator Input Meetings:
February 11 – 1:00 p.m. (local time)
NW ‐ Minot Holiday Inn
SE ‐ Valley City High School Activities Center
February 18 – 1:00 p.m. (local time)
NE – Grand Forks Holiday Inn
SW – Dickinson State University Student Center

The complete rundown of the proposal is at http://www.ndhsaa.org/files/3DivProposal_1_27_09.pdf.

If you feel strongly about this please show up and let them know. These will be the only chances you get to voice your opinion before the vote.

Quoting myself here, but don't forget to show up and voice your opinions tomorrow at the input meetings. I'm sure the NDHSAA would love to hear from the paying fans.

[BB11]

postponed until the 18th. 1:00 PM at Magic City.

[scruffy]

Talked with a couple of people who attended the meeting in Dickinson. Sounds like many doubts about the plan were brought up but those in attendance said they got the feeling that the associations mind is made up. A three class system is coming! They said they feel the meetings were held just to make it look like the door was still open to a two class system.

[NDSportsFan]

Sounds like the fans have been:

[Hinsa]

Talked with a couple of people who attended the meeting in Dickinson. Sounds like many doubts about the plan were brought up but those in attendance said they got the feeling that the associations mind is made up. A three class system is coming! They said they feel the meetings were held just to make it look like the door was still open to a two class system.

An AD in my area attended an advisory meeting and said that he would be surprised if the 3-class system went ahead. He said 9 people from 9 different schools - both A and B - spoke and all spoke emphatically against the proposal. So there might be a sidetrack in the railroad. At least I'm hoping so!

[larrybird33]

With this new three class plan, we've been told time and time again that the 32 largest class B schools are dominating and need to be placed in a new division.

On Monday night, we narrowed it down to the final 32 teams in class B girls basketball. If our smallest schools are truly at a competitive disadvantage, you'd expect the final 32 to be dominated by "big" class B schools, right?

Wrong.

TWENTY-TWO of the final 32 are "small" class B schools that would be placed in the smallest division under the three class plan.

Only TEN of the final 32 are the "big" class B schools that would be moved up under the three class plan.

Region 1: Central Cass and Northern Cass
Region 2: Grafton
Region 3: None (all 4 semi-finalists are small schools)
Region 4: Carrington
Region 5: Standing Rock
Region 6: Bottineau
Region 7: Hazen and Trinity
Region 8: Watford City and New Town

Ladies and gentlemen, we do NOT have a problem. Our smallest schools can compete under the current system. Just say no to this plan!

[NDplayin]

Ok, I was interested by this numbers game and thought I would take a look at where we are at now that we have the Girls Sweet 16. I obtainted a copy of the 3 class proposal and counted 110 current class B schools. Of those 110 the proposal has 28 of them going to a middle class next year, 81 of them in a bottom class, and Harey (with 153 students) is on the list for both. Since there are supposed to be exactly 32 in the middle class, I will put Harvey there making the 110 split 29/81.

Of the 16 schools to make the girls sweet 16, 6 of them fall in the 29 of the would be middle class and 10 of them fall in the 81 of the would be bottom class.

If we lived in a "perfect world" where everything was "fair", all 110 teams would have a perfectly even chance of making the sweet 16... that perfect chance is 14.55%. Our reality gave us 10 of the 81 bottom schools making it or 12.35%. Is there that big of a discrepency between a 14.55% perfection and a 12.35% reality?

Look at it this way. If we said the current 81 smallest schools had a perfectly even chance that would mean out of 16 teams 11.78 of them would be from those 81 schools... we have 10.

10/11.78=.84889 That means our current system is working at 84.89 percent of perfection.

And by the way, if you average the enrollment of all the teams in the sweet 16 you get 152.44. That number is Ironic because Harvey's enrollment is 153, and Harvey is the team on both lists as either the smallest school in the middle class or the biggest school in the bottom one. Seems to me like a pretty good balance of enrollment representation

Ladys and Gentlemen: No plan is every going to be perfect, it is the nature of sports. You can make twenty classes if you would like, there will still be schools in each class larger than others. The plan we have is working as close to perfect as you can get... the small schools can compete and they are proving it! Dont be fooled by an NDHSAA board who is using a bogus "small schools can't compete arguement" to try and pull the wool over your eyes just to justify moving the Valley City Hi-Liners down a class.

[riders]

this way instead of having dickinson trinity vs. heart river or another team with half the student body of trinity, it will be more even competition on each level. it will change class AA in no way. A will be the larger, currently class B schools, and B will be the lower level and low numbers schools. i think that if anything, it will promote a higher level of competition on the lower two levels.

[NDplayin]

this way instead of having dickinson trinity vs. heart river or another team with half the student body of trinity, it will be more even competition on each level. it will change class AA in no way. A will be the larger, currently class B schools, and B will be the lower level and low numbers schools. i think that if anything, it will promote a higher level of competition on the lower two levels.

Oh wow, lets talk about brainwash.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but Heart River's enrollment (178) is higher than Dickinson Trinity's (167). It has occured to me that everytime I hear someone actually speak for 3 classes they usually seem to be from Region 7 and they almost always bring up Dickinson Trinity. In fact out of all those "poor small schools" down there in Region 7 that keep getting on hear and saying "Its not fair we have to play the Titans", Killdeer, Heart River, Bowman, Hazen, and Beulah would all remain in the middle class... still playing Dickinson Trinity.

Human Nature: It is amazing how easily we can ignore simple facts when we want to. Here are some Region 7 facts for you: This week in the girls regional 2 would be 'B' teams beat two would be 'A' teams. Beach (131) beat Beulah (262) and New England (42) beat Killdeer (163). The next night New England turned around and only lost to undefeated Hazen (244) by 4 points, and I read Beach had a big lead on Trinity and would have won but got plagued by injuries and fouls. Trinity's girls lost 6 games this season, two of them to small schools: once to Beach (131) and once to Kidder County (127). When was the last time Trinity girls went to state anyway?

Ok, so the Trinity boys had a great run of 7 straight championships down there, but can you really say that was because of enrollment? Maybe Grinsteinner has just flat out built a great program down there. After all, if it were all about enrollment how come Hazen and Beulah havent also been dominant? More facts: Last year Trinity boys were beat in the Regional by a small school, Beach (131). The last team to go to state out of Region 7 was tiny Mott-Regent (79). Trinity boys have lost two games so far this year. Once again one of them to a small school, Shilo Christian (96).

Heres another good one. Two girls regional championship games were postponed due to weather. Out of 6, so far Standing Rock and Hazen are the only two big schools going to state. One of the postponed games is two small schools. That means that worst case senario, we will have 3 "big schools" at state and 5 "small schools". It could very easily end up 2 and 6!

Do we still really want to play the enrollment card? What is our reason for supporting a three class system now?? Once we dry our tears and examine the facts, it becomes obvious that not only are the "small schools" competing, they are competing very well! If you find yourself sitting around being upset that your team lost more games than they won this year, rather than screaming at the rain maybe you should go home and build a program!

[digger]

larrybird33 & NDplayin,
Thank you for caring enough to not "just let this go". (The NDHSAA is counting on apathy or at least a feeling of inevitability) Thank you for using facts to support your position, something the NDHSAA has consistently refused to do. Let's call this what it is; a proposition that has been built upon the emotional strawmen of equality, fairness, smaller town v. larger town, private schools v. public schools, jealousy and envy. When facts are brought to light, it seems to me that it becomes clear there is no "problem" in need of a solution.

[ndlionsfan]

Good post, NDplayin. I knew Heart River's enrollment was higher than Trinity's when I read this post this morning, I just never got around to looking it up today.

[larrybird33]

Right, and we should note that "Heart River" is the combined enrollment of South Heart and Belfield.

South Heart is smaller than Trinity. Belfield is smaller than Trinity. Combined, their athletic co-op is bigger.

[larrybird33]

"Little" Hankinson defeated "Big" Central Cass in Region 1 and Kidder County qualified in Region 3.

This means that only TWO of the eight teams in the state B girls tournament are "big" class B schools that would move up in the 3 class plan. SIX out of the eight are small schools.

If it's not broken, don't fix it!

[tellmeaboutit]

Right, and we should note that "Heart River" is the combined enrollment of South Heart and Belfield.

South Heart is smaller than Trinity. Belfield is smaller than Trinity. Combined, their athletic co-op is bigger.

We know that South Heart and Belfield are both smaller than Dickinson Trinity! However, they co-op to form Heart River..... do you think that their co-op will dissolve if the three class system goes through? I don't! So it doesn't really matter if they are smaller than Trinity when apart.