3-class system - here we go again.

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3-class system - here we go again.

Postby BB11 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:15 pm

New on the NDHSAA website - proposal for boys and girls B-ball and V-ball 3 class system starting in 2010. I believe - in talking to an administrator about this - that this was the idea of the NDHSAA Board - or that they are backing this idea. So - get ready for 3 classes in 2010 - because the individual schools don't get to vote on it - it is up to the board.
I'm beginning to think - if it ain't broke don't fix it. Leave it as is.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby BB11 » Tue Jan 27, 2009 1:48 pm

According to the article - it looks like April 15 - tax day will be the day we find out whether or not we go 3-class or 80-40 or just redistrict for the 2010-11 season.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby scruffy » Tue Jan 27, 2009 2:45 pm

I think the NDHSAA missed the boat on this one. A three class system was needed in the late 80's and early 90's. Today, with all of the co-ops it's no longer necessary and the idea is obsolete. Family members I have in South Dakota (which has a three class system) don't like it because they believe it really watered down both class "B" and "C"...
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:34 pm

yeah, but try having a 400 person school in your district b/c they want VC to "compete" aka win.......why not 3 classes? ND had it for awhile in the 40s and 50s and omg they went to a two class system and the B is still surviving that terrible manuever. :P
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby digger » Tue Jan 27, 2009 3:41 pm

Thank you oh wise and powerful scruffster. I could not agree more. Unless the NDHSAA is privy to some secret study the rest of us haven't seen, this move is too late. The economics and demographics of our region have been naturally creating more team co-ops, if not school consolidations anyway. I don't see this turning around. The really small schools (God love 'em, I went to one) will continue to see that banding together gives kids more opportunities (I'm not just talking extracurriculars), more bang for the buck. The playing field will naturally level without creating artificial boundries. (I know we used to have three classes, and I know the current system was created at some point). I worked in the corporate world for many years; how many times did we tell our people that they shouldn't be resistant to change, don't be afraid of change, embrace change; blah, blah blah. The dirty little secret is that in almost every case change meant that someone had an agenda. Sometimes it was good. Sometimes it was bad. Someone was at the steering wheel and he/she didn't always know where the heck they were going. Sometimes, in spite of ourselves, we create something that means something, is bigger than the agenda of the moment, something that works, and on top of that something people like. We've got that with the current system.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:38 pm

In SD, there are 172 bball teams with three divisions (17 in 2A, 64 in A, and 91 in B)

In MT there are 170 bball teams with 4 divisions (14, 24, 43, 100)

In WY there are 70 bball teams with 4 divisions (12, 16, 20, 22)

In ND we have 138 bball teams with 2 divisions (18, 120)

Yes, the landscape is changing with declining enrollments and teams cooping, but that is also happening in all these other states. Now, I am not one for watering our current system down but it almost has to be done. It will eventually happen, either in the 2010 season or soon after. What I would like to see if it does happen....

1) Only one state tournament.....we don't need 3 different champions. I say have a 16 team tourney for boys and girls with 4 teams advancing from each of the top divisions and 8 from the lowest division. Then crown 1 champion only.....yes 9 times out of 10 a now class A school would probably win, but think of all the David vs Goliath matchups you could have and the excitement it would bring to a tourney. A team like Max playing against Minot High....you'd have 10,000 cheering for Max and 500 for Minot.

2) Put an enrollment cap on co-ops.....if your enrollment drops below 50 in high school, then you can co-op with someone. If you don't have enough participation numbers to field 2-3 squads and you're over 50, big deal just field a varsity and play. If people are trying to justify having 3 schools to even things out, then they better go back to competing with their own high school team and have some pride in their community/school. If not, consolidate your schools into one and field a team....that's what the legislature and NDHSAA board seems to be pushing for anyway.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ndlionsfan » Tue Jan 27, 2009 4:43 pm

Another thought I have on the reclassifying the NDHSAA is thinking about is concerning the 80/40 plan. Right now the thought is to have 2 sub-divisions in class B (essentially 3 classes in disguise) with 4 teams from each going to state. Why not use the enrollment figures from the 80/40 plan, but have the bottom 80 compete in a separate "Class B tourney" and the top 40 be guaranteed 4 spots in the "Class A tourney"?? Then you basically have two separate classes with 56 in the top class and 80 in the bottom. Seems a lot more balanced that way. Then we can see how the class A schools compare to the large class B schools with each being guaranteed 4 spots in a state tourney, and the lower enrollment class B schools don't have to complain about schools like VC, MPCG, Central Cass, Lisbon, etc beating up on them.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby scruffy » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:54 am

luvmy3gbb1wr wrote:yeah, but try having a 400 person school in your district b/c they want VC to "compete" aka win.......why not 3 classes? ND had it for awhile in the 40s and 50s and omg they went to a two class system and the B is still surviving that terrible manuever. :P


and why do you think they scrapped the three class system 40 years ago??????? Think about it!!!!! Although tough for the human race, we can learn from the past!! :P
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby digger » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:03 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:Yes, the landscape is changing with declining enrollments and teams cooping, but that is also happening in all these other states. Now, I am not one for watering our current system down but it almost has to be done. It will eventually happen, either in the 2010 season or soon after. What I would like to see if it does happen....

A couple of comments: Let's not base what we do on other states. I've never been much of a follower, we have intelligent, dedicated people in ND, we can think for ourselves. Talk to various groups in SD and see how their system works for them? Sure, that's following the process, getting your ducks in a row. But group think can lead to poor decisions.
Why does this "almost have to be done"? I get the sense that this is the equivalent of politicians telling us something over and over so that at some point it is accepted as truth. If this "necessary" change is brought up time and again, more and more people will accept the "truth" that a change is necessary. I'd like the NDHSAA to clearly outline why this is necessary. Last night on a newsclip, Sherm Sylling listed three factors in why this is being promoted: 1) overlapping seasons, 2) discrepancy in parity of play, 3) venue issues surrounding regional tournaments. 1 & 3 are administrative issues; plan and work through them; 2 is largely subjective and anecdotal. Give me facts. Are teams now really getting beat downs more regularly than they did in the 70's 80's 90's? Is this "discrepancy" so bad that it demands a fix? My guess is that what has changed is how certain segments of our population view "fairness" and "equal" as it relates to our youth.
I don't offer up a solution. Why? I see no clear evidence that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Move Valley City into Region 1 to play against larger schools and voila, "problem" solved. They would probably best fit there. I would bet that Kindred, Central Cass, Oak Grove, Lisbon, etc. wouldn't mind creating a rivalry with the Hi-liners.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby scruffy » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:46 pm

digger wrote: couple of comments: Let's not base what we do on other states. I've never been much of a follower, we have intelligent, dedicated people in ND, we can think for ourselves. Talk to various groups in SD and see how their system works for them? Sure, that's following the process, getting your ducks in a row. But group think can lead to poor decisions.
Why does this "almost have to be done"? I get the sense that this is the equivalent of politicians telling us something over and over so that at some point it is accepted as truth. If this "necessary" change is brought up time and again, more and more people will accept the "truth" that a change is necessary. I'd like the NDHSAA to clearly outline why this is necessary. Last night on a newsclip, Sherm Sylling listed three factors in why this is being promoted: 1) overlapping seasons, 2) discrepancy in parity of play, 3) venue issues surrounding regional tournaments. 1 & 3 are administrative issues; plan and work through them; 2 is largely subjective and anecdotal. Give me facts. Are teams now really getting beat downs more regularly than they did in the 70's 80's 90's? Is this "discrepancy" so bad that it demands a fix? My guess is that what has changed is how certain segments of our population view "fairness" and "equal" as it relates to our youth.
I don't offer up a solution. Why? I see no clear evidence that there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Move Valley City into Region 1 to play against larger schools and voila, "problem" solved. They would probably best fit there. I would bet that Kindred, Central Cass, Oak Grove, Lisbon, etc. wouldn't mind creating a rivalry with the Hi-liners.


now that makes sense...and because of that, it won't happen!
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby rock83 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 12:50 pm

This might be one of the strangest ideas i have ever heard. This isnt hoosiers. The class A teams that play the class b teams would absolutely kill them. in 99% of all the games yes one out of every 100 might have a chance but thats about it. I dont think you people realize how much better the competition is in class a versus the class b teams. Even more so in girls basketball. There is such a difference between the bigger and smaller schools it is unbelievable. Now is the time for 3 divisions and i thought I would never say this. there is such a perfect division between the new AAA teams, then the AA and finally the small schools it is unbelievable. If you havent been to a state tournament lately it is mostly the teams that would be in AA that are in both B tournaments right now.

ndlionsfan wrote:In SD, there are 172 bball teams with three divisions (17 in 2A, 64 in A, and 91 in B)

In MT there are 170 bball teams with 4 divisions (14, 24, 43, 100)

In WY there are 70 bball teams with 4 divisions (12, 16, 20, 22)

In ND we have 138 bball teams with 2 divisions (18, 120)

Yes, the landscape is changing with declining enrollments and teams cooping, but that is also happening in all these other states. Now, I am not one for watering our current system down but it almost has to be done. It will eventually happen, either in the 2010 season or soon after. What I would like to see if it does happen....

1) Only one state tournament.....we don't need 3 different champions. I say have a 16 team tourney for boys and girls with 4 teams advancing from each of the top divisions and 8 from the lowest division. Then crown 1 champion only.....yes 9 times out of 10 a now class A school would probably win, but think of all the David vs Goliath matchups you could have and the excitement it would bring to a tourney. A team like Max playing against Minot High....you'd have 10,000 cheering for Max and 500 for Minot.

2) Put an enrollment cap on co-ops.....if your enrollment drops below 50 in high school, then you can co-op with someone. If you don't have enough participation numbers to field 2-3 squads and you're over 50, big deal just field a varsity and play. If people are trying to justify having 3 schools to even things out, then they better go back to competing with their own high school team and have some pride in their community/school. If not, consolidate your schools into one and field a team....that's what the legislature and NDHSAA board seems to be pushing for anyway.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:38 pm

digger wrote:Why does this "almost have to be done"? I get the sense that this is the equivalent of politicians telling us something over and over so that at some point it is accepted as truth. If this "necessary" change is brought up time and again, more and more people will accept the "truth" that a change is necessary. I'd like the NDHSAA to clearly outline why this is necessary. Last night on a newsclip, Sherm Sylling listed three factors in why this is being promoted: 1) overlapping seasons, 2) discrepancy in parity of play, 3) venue issues surrounding regional tournaments.


Here is the reason I think this has to be done.....I saw on the NDHSAA website that the North Border co-op(Walhalla, Neche, and Pembina) is also going to have Drayton with them next year. That is 4 towns and only one team! Think of it in terms of distance....Walhalla is 30 west of Pembina and Drayton is 30 miles south of Pembina. That means if there is a home game in Walhalla, the players and fans from Drayton have to travel almost 60 miles for a home game!! I don't know how their agreement is going to be done with where games and practices will be held, but think if there are practices held in Walhalla or Drayton. That's a hour bus ride to and from practice for some of those kids! Practice wouldn't get started until 4:30-5:00 each night, done around 7:00 and then home around 8:00-8:30. What happens to education when so much time is spent at a extracurricular function? I know this isn't the norm, but you will be seeing a lot more of this in the next couple years. In order to compete, its going to take 3-4 schools to form one team. If there were three classes and the board actually put some strict regulations on co-ops, these could be 2-3 different teams with more participation and school pride.....and more time for education.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby BB11 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:01 pm

That is actually the one co-op I looked at when I thought that the 3-class might benefit them. The problem with that co-op is - Its not needed. North Border could field a team without Walhalla or Drayton. Walhalla could field their own team and Drayton could hook up with Midway-Minto if their numbers are that down.
The only problem with this is - even if it does go 3 -class - which it will - They wont' dissolve their co-op - No one will. - So there really isn't any use for a 3 class system. This is just my opinion - but I don't see any co-ops dissolving even if it meant going down a division.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:40 pm

I agree that I don't see any co-ops dissolving unless the board forces the issue on some of these schools...
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby NDSportsFan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 2:52 pm

There are going to be input meetings at these times and places:

Regional Administrator Input Meetings:
February 11 – 1:00 p.m. (local time)
NW ‐ Minot Holiday Inn
SE ‐ Valley City High School Activities Center
February 18 – 1:00 p.m. (local time)
NE – Grand Forks Holiday Inn
SW – Dickinson State University Student Center

The complete rundown of the proposal is at http://www.ndhsaa.org/files/3DivProposal_1_27_09.pdf.

If you feel strongly about this please show up and let them know. These will be the only chances you get to voice your opinion before the vote.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:09 pm

How many versions of the same plan have to be voted down before we're done with this?
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby NDSportsFan » Wed Jan 28, 2009 5:56 pm

Attend the meeting and voice your opinions.

There is always email too. ndhsaa.com@sendit.nodak.edu
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ClassBEast » Wed Jan 28, 2009 6:39 pm

scc wrote:
larrybird33 wrote:How many versions of the same plan have to be voted down before we're done with this?


That's why they're talking about three divisions, not three classes. That will be the NDHSAA's way of getting around this issue. The schools voted it down, but that won't stop the board from having it their way. The meetings and surveys in the upcoming months will have no bearing on their decision. Their minds are already made up. Why else would they throw this idea at us again? It was a bad idea before, and it's still a bad idea today. Get ready for the new three "division" system because it's coming.


What's the difference between "divisions" and "classes" in this case? Is there one or are they just playing with the words?
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby Baller » Wed Jan 28, 2009 9:03 pm

The will pretty much make Class B into two different divisions. B1 and B2...kind of like FCS and FBS
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:35 pm

I don't care if you call it three divisions or three classes, it's the same plan!

Every year in North Dakota we will have fewer high schools and fewer high school teams. How in the world can you justify adding "divisions" when you are losing teams?
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:19 am

scruffy wrote:
luvmy3gbb1wr wrote:yeah, but try having a 400 person school in your district b/c they want VC to "compete" aka win.......why not 3 classes? ND had it for awhile in the 40s and 50s and omg they went to a two class system and the B is still surviving that terrible manuever. :P


and why do you think they scrapped the three class system 40 years ago??????? Think about it!!!!! Although tough for the human race, we can learn from the past!! :P



they got rid of it b/c school sizes changed....not b/c it was an awful idea.......they adapted (to change, to modify, to learn and grow) to what was happening in ND at the time. Lots of guys are screaming on this site about "don't change the B" "it's tradition" "don't change"......now that is sticking one's head in the sand
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby larrybird33 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:46 am

The only thing that has changed is that everyone wants a trophy now and no one wants to work for it.

Parshall won the title in 2007. Turtle Lake-Mercer reached the championship game last year. A small school can still win the 'B.' If it ain't broken, don't "fix" it!
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby ClassBEast » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:47 am

Three-class plan proposed: Decision on basketball, volleyball changes to be made April 15
By: Heath Hotzler , INFORUM


An idea with more lives than Jason Voorhees of the “Friday The 13th” movie franchise has been resurrected again by the North Dakota High School Activities Association.

The association on Monday proposed a three-division plan for basketball and volleyball to its general assembly of members in Bismarck.

A decision will be made on April 15, following regional input meetings in February.

“It’s a done deal from the standpoint that this is the concept the board would like to move forward with,” NDHSAA executive secretary Sherm Sylling said Wednesday. “It’s what the board would like to see happen.”

The proposal calls for schools with enrollments of 400 and larger to be in the 2A Division.

The next 32 schools would be in A, and the rest in B.

Any school can petition the NDHSAA to move up.

Valley City, Fargo Shanley and Bismarck-St. Mary’s would be in Class A.

The changes would take effect in 2010-11.

Fairmount-Campbell-Tintah girls basketball coach Jay Townsend said he had heard concerns about the future of the Class B tournament, and the high cost of traveling greater distances under the new plan.

However, Townsend said he is in favor of the change.

“I think it’s just equity amongst the schools,” said Townsend, whose program would be one of the smallest in the new B Division with an enrollment of about 85 in grades 9-12.

“These smaller schools are starting to hurt for numbers. … I think (three divisions) will (become reality).”

Also the athletic director at Fairmount High School, Townsend said his and other small schools in North Dakota have been limited due to declining enrollment.

F-C-T has projected declining numbers for students out for athletics each year through 2015, Townsend said.

“We don’t have much to work with in practice,” he said. “My assistant and I have had to jump in to practices to give our girls a different look. On the boys team, we’ve had to pull up 7th and 8th graders to our junior varsity.”

Wyndmere volleyball coach Chris Swenson said a change is needed.

“I don’t think we’re ever going to get a plan that has everyone’s support,” he said. “Everyone has to look at it with their school’s best interest in mind. But I’m in favor of a change.”

Wyndmere would co-op with Lidgerwood in boys and girls basketball and volleyball under the new plan.

In the proposal, the Wyndmere-Lidgerwood programs would be one of the largest in the B Division with an enrollment of 144.

Swenson said his school could be moved up to A if more current enrollment numbers are used in the final version of the plan.

“I believe something will happen,” Swenson said. “… We’ll go where they tell us to go.”

The new plan could be closer than any other to becoming a reality due to a recent change in the NDHSAA bylaws.

Previous incarnations of a three-division system had to go to a vote of member schools. All proposals have been rejected.

The activities association can now make changes in basketball without a vote, Sylling said.

“The way I look at it is that we’re giving kids more of a chance to have success at a higher level,” Swenson said.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby BB11 » Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:49 am

80/40 plan was scrapped by the board - it's either 3-class or redistrict - and by what I have heard from administrators and by the looks of the previous article - they are going to go with the 3-class system.
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Re: 3-class system - here we go again.

Postby digger » Thu Jan 29, 2009 12:02 pm

This is a done deal. Glance through my posts above and you can quickly pick up my thoughts on the subject. The light bulb finally went on last night. When it became obvious to those who wanted this (three class system) that it did not have popular support and would not happen through the existing procedure things started happening: 1) Keep the issue alive by constantly revisiting it, it must be good and true if it keeps coming up right? (see my post above): 2) Get the word out that there is a large disparity in competitive balance (Turtle Lake and Parshall notwithstanding, not to mention BCN, Richland, North Sargent, Steele-Dawson, etc), repeat this over and over without citing facts; 3)Crank up the heat by putting Valley City into Class B and then in a mind numbingly illogical twist, put them in District 5 instead of District 2 Region 1 where they would actually fit. "This can't be, something must be done, Valley City will be the scourge of Class B".; 4) Finally, oh by the way, the bylaws are changing, the board can now regulate basketball without a vote by the whole membership. No fuss, no mess.
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