running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

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running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby 9manfootballmom » Mon Feb 11, 2008 1:36 pm

or any games for that matter:

Talked to a guy that was at a Mandan Outlaw 7th grade tourney last weekend. Mandan team pressed the entire game and won by over 30. Yes the rules say they can press until the score is out of reach...so then...what is out of reach?

What do you think?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:03 pm

Our league mandates no pressing with a lead of 10 or more.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby 9manfootballmom » Mon Feb 11, 2008 2:06 pm

What league is that Bis, Minot, Fargo, GF? Just curious. My daughter will be playing 6th grade outlaw and am hoping that is the case, too.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:13 pm

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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:31 pm

You don't want to get beat by 30, then practice.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby scruffy » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:35 pm

At that age equal playing time is more important then the game result. It's disgusting to see a team run it up at that leval because in that situation nobody learns anything...
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Tue Feb 12, 2008 2:39 pm

Seriously Wild Wolves. We're talking about junior high here. Many teams only have 6-7 players and they do what they can with what they have. And kids mature at very different rates. You can have a team of 5-foot pee wees trying to play against a team with 6-footers that are darn near shaving already.

What's the sense in continuing to press in junior high when you've got a good lead?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby balla45 » Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:28 pm

Hinsa wrote:Seriously Wild Wolves. We're talking about junior high here. Many teams only have 6-7 players and they do what they can with what they have. And kids mature at very different rates. You can have a team of 5-foot pee wees trying to play against a team with 6-footers that are darn near shaving already.

What's the sense in continuing to press in junior high when you've got a good lead?


This would have to be girls basketball. The Mandan boy's team 7-12 are all still playing. Girl's 8-12 still are too, with some 7th graders on the freshman team.

To the person who started this topic, was it boys or girls basketball? Who told you that this happened?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:11 pm

O.k. pretty sure none of the girls are shaving at least not their faces.

And because there are only 6-7 girls on a team only makes me think that practice is the answer. Sometimes getting beat is the only way some kids figure out that they are not as good as they thought they were. We have enough kids that walk in the door and instantly think they are special because they play BB.

I would love to see the kids who ran up the score get beat by 30 as well. I would think they would be motivated to practice.

There will be a winner and a loser. This is not about feeling good it is about playing hard and knowing that no matter how good you think you are you can always get better.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Tue Feb 12, 2008 4:17 pm

And another thing if a team takes it easy on you what are you going to learn.
:? Maybe if I don't fight back the big mean girls will stop :?
If you want to get better play good teams and find out what they are doing, copy them and get better. Here is a though, complain about getting beat, complain about people who brag about their team when they beat, complain about whatever you want. None of that will make you any better. That i can guarantee 8)
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:05 pm

I'm not sure you're getting my point Wild Wolves. What is the good team learning by stealing the ball on the press and shooting layups all game? They aren't learning skills, they are learning how to shoot layups. Big deal.

And what is the bad team learning by turning the ball over and getting layups scored on them all game? Nothing. If the good team takes the press off the bad team at least gets a chance to get the ball across half court and maybe, maybe run their offense. Then the good team gets to learn half court defense too.

I'm not saying the good team should quit playing. Once the ball comes across half court, all bets are off - play all the pressure defense you want when it gets to the half court.

I've coached at this level for many years. I've been on both sides of it. When my team is winning big in the second half I tell them no more fast breaks, set up and run the offense. It's good practice for my team to work their offense and score in the half court. Continuing to fast break and shoot layup after layup teaches my team nothing.

What do you think?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby old lineman » Tue Feb 12, 2008 7:13 pm

It was an Aberdeen SD team and the Mandan girls team. This is to quote a person that was there, the two teams pressed the whole game they set a record on turnover's for both teams. 9man mom was a all region coach many years ago, one of her teams won only one game the first year they played and made it to regionals the next. So she would have been on both sides of the equation. Not to deminish the fact that alot of lessons are learned in a hard fought game, rolling over is not the answer either. But don't rub someones face in a score of a game. Perry Smith, a long time ref out of Wilton was a real advocate of the mercy rule. In some cases it needs to be used. When you go to a Outlaw tourney you will see all kinds, entries beware, Ditka could be coaching the other team. So practice, practice, and play in bunch of places and you find someone to whoop ya. Hinsa, your comments are right on. Ahead by 28 go into the 4 corners, you will learn ball control.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Tue Feb 12, 2008 9:18 pm

If you want me to let up and allow you to work on getting better you had better be teh first team to call off the dogs. If I am beating you and you are going to continue to press, so will I. Go for the throat! If you let up, I will work on something else. Until then?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby ndfan » Tue Feb 12, 2008 10:59 pm

Wild Wolves wrote:If you want me to let up and allow you to work on getting better you had better be teh first team to call off the dogs. If I am beating you and you are going to continue to press, so will I. Go for the throat! If you let up, I will work on something else. Until then?


Wow go for the throat in junior high thats a nice way of putting it.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Tue Feb 12, 2008 11:11 pm

Wild Wolves, I'll give you the idea that if the team getting beat keeps pressing then it's not so bad if the team that is ahead continues to press. I've seen teams that are ahead send in the tail end of the bench and then the team that is behind STARTS to press when they haven't been the whole game. That's not cool either.

Personally, I'd call off the dogs if I'm up big, no matter what the other team is doing. I just don't believe in stepping on people when they are down. What does it prove?
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby old lineman » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:09 am

Wild Wolves needs some sensitvity training, next it will be ok to pull pony tails in a 1-2-1-1 press. I do agree that if you make the first move to show that you are pulling off the dogs and the opposing coach does do something that is bush league slap it right back then they will get the point. It's ok to run the starters to a point, up by 25 and then pull them. But the opposition should get the hint too.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Wed Feb 13, 2008 7:52 am

Leave no doubt may be a better phrase than teh throat thing agreed.

Sensitivity Training?? Exactly why we have a decline in participation (from another thread). I don't play sports or coach or whatever to make you feel good, or to make you better.

It is about me getting better, my team feeling good.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby ndsportsfan24 » Wed Feb 13, 2008 10:42 am

Yeah the team getting better and feeling good...you dont have to win by 60 points to feel good..or even 30-i think hinsa is right about learning and running half court offense/defense-thats how teams get experience and learn the game. they will be better off afterwards and learn to respect the players on the other team. and especially in junior high-varsity is very different cuz wins and losses REALLY count there--junior high is mainly about having fun learning basketball
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby scruffy » Wed Feb 13, 2008 11:44 am

I remember when our teams were playing that level. Usually it was teams from towns that had losing traditions or had a chip on their shoulders about us that tried to run it up. They didn't realize we believe in equal playing time for all kids at that age. I guess it made them feel good. :roll: It sure is fun to get even with them when we get even on the varsity level!! :D
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Hinsa » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:01 pm

As adults, we have a responsibility to teach junior high boys and girls that there is a sportsmanship component in sports. Compete hard, play hard, work hard, strive for excellence, but also have some compassion for your opponent.

I tell my kids to knock the other player down when they are boxing out and rebounding, then pick them up, dust them off, ask them if they are OK, and then knock them on their can again the next time. I don't coddle my players, but I also teach them that it's OK to respect your opponent and treat them with dignity. Knocking 'em down and then picking 'em back up sends the message that "I'm going to kick your butt, but when this is over I'll shake your hand and respect you."

As for getting better, let me give you an example from personal experience. We have a team in our area that has a travelling team in grade school. They play up to 50 games a year in elementary school. When they get to junior high they regularly kick butt because they are more advanced in playing agressively, stealing the ball, and shooting layups. To their credit, they DO NOT press, but they certainly play aggressive half court defense, get tons of steals, and shoot layup after layup.

As the other teams in the area catch up in skills and physical development, the high school teams of this school regularly get passed by the other teams in the area that have concentrated more on fundamentals rather than steals and layups. When the kids they used to steal the ball from and shoot layups against learn how to pass the ball and run an offense, these kids can't compete because all they know how to do is steal the ball and shoot layups.

So I believe in the philosophy of calling off the dogs and working on other aspects of the game, both as a sign of sportsmanship and also to develop other skills that will serve the kids better in the long run.
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby 9manfootballmom » Wed Feb 13, 2008 12:04 pm

Hinsa you nailed it thanks
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Wed Feb 13, 2008 1:30 pm

O.k.

Here goes, having only coached for the last 10-15 years I have very rarely had the chance to be the go for the throat team. I have been on the other side on numerous occasions (lets just say I have been an emergecy coach for the lower end kids). I have been pressed for an entire game and lost by 30+. I don't blame the other coach. We went and worked on press breakers in practice. The kids got better. The next time we played they pressed the entire game again, we lost by 12. The kids felt good about the game and were confident that if (big if) given another chance they could win.

Another year we played a team that only had 7 kids all better than our best player. They were up by 30 at the half. Their coach could be heard yelling to his players, "pass three times before you shoot" and "if you shoot a lay-up it has to be left handed". They still won by 20+. The kids felt embarrassed. One even said that he would rather lose by 100 than have a team do that. After that game what do you have to work on in practice, how can you say this is the area that needs improvement when you have been toyed with for an entire half.

I don't coach basketball every year and I don't profess to know beans about it. I do know that the kids understand and know when they are being "played".
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Eminence » Wed Feb 13, 2008 2:50 pm

Most tournaments have a maximum 12 points for pool play to prevent a team from running up the score. Did Mandan have a limit on the points allowed. If not, they should.

In Jr High/Middle School, kids are still learning the game. You can practice a half court offense and do not need to continue to run your fast break. I've seen a Bismarck parent at a 7th grade Fargo tournament chant airball when a child missed their shot. Parents are loosing their minds with their children about sports. IT IS THE DECISION OF PARENTS, NOT SCHOOL COACHES WHO ARE DOING THIS. These parents should be embarrased and ashamed.

At the Varsity level, they should know the game and be prepared. If you lose by 30, you need more practice. At the younger level and kids are still learning, it is very poor sportmanship and parents who are living their life thru their children!!
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby 9manfootballmom » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:07 pm

I was told that it is the Manday Way, regardless of level but I don't know Mandan's rule although I was also told that it was up to the coach to decide what was a dominant lead, and then use their judgement when to stop the press. I agree that parents at this level can be pretty crazy. It isn't all of us though, and boy does our daughter keep us in line! There is another topic somewhere on this sight about the best fans, who has them, and it goes into the whole "inappropriate stuff" like yelling airball and then being relentless whenever that same kids shoots the ball.

It is still happening but I think it is geting better at the high school level because the NDHSAA is enforcing it through administration and the officials. Who knows if it will ever stop but I wish people like that would remember that these are just kids who love the sport. If parents push too hard the kids will hate the sport and never want to play again.

I know I am on my soapbox but I like the 12 point rule. I'll have to check My daughter is in an outlaw tourney in Mandan this weekend. She's in sixth Maybe it's different in JH. thanks
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Re: running up scores in junior high outlaw tourneys

Postby Wild Wolves » Wed Feb 13, 2008 3:26 pm

Quick reminder the tournament you are talking about was not school related. Parents are the coaches for the most part. I generally don't think of these outlaw tournaments as having coaches, yes there are exceptions. Mostly parents that thinks their kid is the NEXT BIG THING. That is not a coach!
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