A vs. B

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A vs. B

Postby baseball » Sun Jan 27, 2008 12:35 pm

without using the shot clock, why is class B a joke and Class A is king??

someone said theyve never seen a game where a team scores over 60...how many games have you seen?

Class B
Central Cass - 62.2 PPG
Lisbon - 67.4 PPG
North Border - 65.3 PPG
Four Winds - 77.4 PPG
Steele-Dawson - 65.2 PPG
Turtle-Lake - 78.2 PPG
Watford City - 74 PPG
Parshall - 73.4 PPG
Dunsieth - 62.6 PPG
Warwick - 79.3 PPG
New Rockford - 73.6 PPG

Class A (in 32 minutes)
Williston - 71.5 PPG (63.5 PPG)
Century - 59 PPG (52.4 PPG)
Minot - 76.2 PPG (67.7 PPG)
Jamestown - 50.5 PPG (44.9 PPG)
Wahpeton - 61.2 PPG (54.4 PPG) (lost to a Class B school)
Valley City - 58.5 PPG (52 PPG)
Dickinson - 71.6 PPG (63.6 PPG)

Few Random D-1 schools (in 32 minutes)
#22 Drake - 73.2 PPG (58.6 PPG)
#23 Xavier - 78.4 PPG (62.7 PPG)
#16 Dayton - 70.9 PPG (56.7 PPG)
#13 Pitt - 76.8 PPG (61.4 PPG)

my point is is that its not the shot clock that makes class B have lower scoring, its the fact that Class A plays 4 more minutes in a game
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baller24 » Sun Jan 27, 2008 8:28 pm

baseball wrote:without using the shot clock, why is class B a joke and Class A is king??

someone said theyve never seen a game where a team scores over 60...how many games have you seen?

Class B
Central Cass - 62.2 PPG
Lisbon - 67.4 PPG
North Border - 65.3 PPG
Four Winds - 77.4 PPG
Steele-Dawson - 65.2 PPG
Turtle-Lake - 78.2 PPG
Watford City - 74 PPG
Parshall - 73.4 PPG
Dunsieth - 62.6 PPG
Warwick - 79.3 PPG
New Rockford - 73.6 PPG

Class A (in 32 minutes)
Williston - 71.5 PPG (63.5 PPG)
Century - 59 PPG (52.4 PPG)
Minot - 76.2 PPG (67.7 PPG)
Jamestown - 50.5 PPG (44.9 PPG)
Wahpeton - 61.2 PPG (54.4 PPG) (lost to a Class B school)
Valley City - 58.5 PPG (52 PPG)
Dickinson - 71.6 PPG (63.6 PPG)

Few Random D-1 schools (in 32 minutes)
#22 Drake - 73.2 PPG (58.6 PPG)
#23 Xavier - 78.4 PPG (62.7 PPG)
#16 Dayton - 70.9 PPG (56.7 PPG)
#13 Pitt - 76.8 PPG (61.4 PPG)

my point is is that its not the shot clock that makes class B have lower scoring, its the fact that Class A plays 4 more minutes in a game

good homework baseball.. that is quite true info that it is the 4 minutes and not the clock because after all about how many teams run the shot all the way down in a game, maybe 5 at the most.. good stats
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Re: A vs. B

Postby Hinsa » Mon Jan 28, 2008 4:31 am

Great work Baseball! Thanks for doing that!

I read the post about not seeing games over 60 points in class B. When smart source said that, he/she lost ALL CREDIBILITY in my book. If you ask me, smart source is not so smart.

I agree with you - the shot clock is not what dictates the number of points in a game.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby teamball » Mon Jan 28, 2008 9:37 pm

I just checked Dickinson State and Valley City State basketball sites.
some of there scores.

57 to 43
61 to 59
59 to 55
71 to 48
61 to 52
58 to 46
56 to 49

College plays 8 minutes more than class A and has a shot clock.

It just goes to show that if a coaches style is to slow the game down a shot clock won't stop that from happening.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:16 pm

College plays 4 more minutes then Class A and 8 more then Class B.

im curious as to why none of the "pro-shot clock" posters havent replied yet.....
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Re: A vs. B

Postby MrFearing » Mon Jan 28, 2008 11:56 pm

baseball wrote:im curious as to why none of the "pro-shot clock" posters havent replied yet.....



I am definately all for the shot clock

Like it or not, it does prevent teams from stalling for minutes at a time

The clock also can get players ready for the next level
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:02 am

go to a class B game and count the number of possesions that last longer then 35 seconds....

how many kids play basketball in the state of north dakota? how many will play college ball? to say get them ready for the next level is not a reason to get a shot clock. shot clock is not needed in class b. look at the ppg totals i posted above..its not the shot clock for the reason class b scores less points (more in some cases too...ie Century, Jamestown, Whap, Valley)
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Re: A vs. B

Postby luvmy3gbb1wr » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:32 am

baseball wrote:go to a class B game and count the number of possesions that last longer then 35 seconds....

how many kids play basketball in the state of north dakota? how many will play college ball? to say get them ready for the next level is not a reason to get a shot clock. shot clock is not needed in class b. look at the ppg totals i posted above..its not the shot clock for the reason class b scores less points (more in some cases too...ie Century, Jamestown, Whap, Valley)


agreed, there's no shot clock, that's okay; but in the B when there's an open shot, it's taken.......i've seen very few games where teams just pass, and pass, and pass; the bad teams can't pass decently long enough to keep the ball and the good teams are finding shots and getting up and down the court quickly......
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Re: A vs. B

Postby smart source » Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:52 pm

baseball wrote:without using the shot clock, why is class B a joke and Class A is king??

someone said theyve never seen a game where a team scores over 60...how many games have you seen?

Class B
Central Cass - 62.2 PPG
Lisbon - 67.4 PPG
North Border - 65.3 PPG
Four Winds - 77.4 PPG
Steele-Dawson - 65.2 PPG
Turtle-Lake - 78.2 PPG
Watford City - 74 PPG
Parshall - 73.4 PPG
Dunsieth - 62.6 PPG
Warwick - 79.3 PPG
New Rockford - 73.6 PPG

Class A (in 32 minutes)
Williston - 71.5 PPG (63.5 PPG)
Century - 59 PPG (52.4 PPG)
Minot - 76.2 PPG (67.7 PPG)
Jamestown - 50.5 PPG (44.9 PPG)
Wahpeton - 61.2 PPG (54.4 PPG) (lost to a Class B school)
Valley City - 58.5 PPG (52 PPG)
Dickinson - 71.6 PPG (63.6 PPG)

Few Random D-1 schools (in 32 minutes)
#22 Drake - 73.2 PPG (58.6 PPG)
#23 Xavier - 78.4 PPG (62.7 PPG)
#16 Dayton - 70.9 PPG (56.7 PPG)
#13 Pitt - 76.8 PPG (61.4 PPG)

my point is is that its not the shot clock that makes class B have lower scoring, its the fact that Class A plays 4 more minutes in a game



ok first of all you can't take a lot of lower tear teams from class a and say they average as many points as class b teams and the only legit teams you have in that class a part is minot williston and mabye dickinson and on top of that it looks like our taking the top average point getters from class b so when you take the average points per game of all class b and all class a and compare them then we can talk because i bet class a is higher...second when you say why is class a the king its because it is not to be a jerk because i have no problem with class b the fact of the matter is class a day in and day out puts out etter teams and its more than not because of the size and im not disputing that at all but to try and put them at the same level is idiotic its like putting nba teams against college teams...as far as the king of basketball in north dakota it is by far class a i mean put the state chapionship class a team against the state chapions from class b and i got class a by 40 points and agian im not trying to be a jerk its just a fact
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:58 pm

Bismarck - 79.6 PPG (70.7 PPG)
Mandan - 68.3 PPG (60.7 PPG)
Fargo South - 73.7 PPG (65.5 PPG)
Fargo North - 74.9 PPG (66.6 PPG)
West Fargo - 70.7 PPG (62.8 PPG)

there is a few of your "top tier" teams of class A and the numbers are the same...its not because Class A is that much better, its because they play 4 minutes more a game. Im not saying they are the same level because that would be stupid, I know Class A teams about better. not because the stars are better, but the role players are better. if youve watched as much class B ball as you say, you would realize that your no game is ever over 60 points was rediculous. i used them B teams because they are the few who update stats on the NDHSAA, also becuase these teams average well above 60 points a game which is a point amount you have never seen in a class B game. and if class A is that much better why doesnt matter who I use, the bottom of Class A is supposed to beat the top of Class B right???
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Re: A vs. B

Postby Number7 » Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:41 pm

I dont have an issued with how many points any team in any class scores concerning the shot clock. The thing I hate to see is at state/regional tournaments a team gets a 5-6 point lead with 6-7 minutes to go and holds it forever. Thats not basketball and does nothing good for the game. During big games, everything is magnified and I think that includes the need for a shot clock.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:26 pm

Number7 wrote:I dont have an issued with how many points any team in any class scores concerning the shot clock. The thing I hate to see is at state/regional tournaments a team gets a 5-6 point lead with 6-7 minutes to go and holds it forever. Thats not basketball and does nothing good for the game. During big games, everything is magnified and I think that includes the need for a shot clock.


which again is can be countered by pressure defense and not just sit back and let them hold it. im not saying get up in his shirt, because like i said before not every class B school has the numbers to do that because that takes alot of energy. but get close enough to get a ref to start a 5 count and make the ball handler make a play.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby BBall dominator » Tue Jan 29, 2008 11:09 pm

baseball wrote:Bismarck - 79.6 PPG (70.7 PPG)
Mandan - 68.3 PPG (60.7 PPG)
Fargo South - 73.7 PPG (65.5 PPG)
Fargo North - 74.9 PPG (66.6 PPG)
West Fargo - 70.7 PPG (62.8 PPG)

there is a few of your "top tier" teams of class A and the numbers are the same...its not because Class A is that much better, its because they play 4 minutes more a game. Im not saying they are the same level because that would be stupid, I know Class A teams about better. not because the stars are better, but the role players are better. if youve watched as much class B ball as you say, you would realize that your no game is ever over 60 points was rediculous. i used them B teams because they are the few who update stats on the NDHSAA, also becuase these teams average well above 60 points a game which is a point amount you have never seen in a class B game. and if class A is that much better why doesnt matter who I use, the bottom of Class A is supposed to beat the top of Class B right???


Exactly the best players in class B are comparable to the best in class A its just Class b doesn't have the depth that Class a does. As to that Class A champs would beat the Class B champs is crazy. I've played w/ players from Class A my whole life and would say that a majority of class B teams would be overwhelmed w/ they way they play defense and just the athletes they have. But there teams who could compete w/ them year in and yerar out based on coaching and talent level.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby smart source » Wed Jan 30, 2008 12:57 am

baseball wrote:
Number7 wrote:I dont have an issued with how many points any team in any class scores concerning the shot clock. The thing I hate to see is at state/regional tournaments a team gets a 5-6 point lead with 6-7 minutes to go and holds it forever. Thats not basketball and does nothing good for the game. During big games, everything is magnified and I think that includes the need for a shot clock.


which again is can be countered by pressure defense and not just sit back and let them hold it. im not saying get up in his shirt, because like i said before not every class B school has the numbers to do that because that takes alot of energy. but get close enough to get a ref to start a 5 count and make the ball handler make a play.


wait a second conditioning has nothing to do with how many athletes you have class a and class b teams generally dress the same amount of kids and idk but ive always been taught since i was young you might not have the talent to be an offensive star but anyone can play defense and be good at it so your it takes to much energy argument is pointless anyone of those class b teams could be in just as good of shape as any class a teams players its just hard work so there you go there is your difference the defense for one thing wouldn't it be harder to score more points with the defense bismarck plays then a 2-3 zone i would think so and as far as you posting the top tier teams ppg did you get the average class a to class b ppg...dont really because i know that would be nearly impossible to do but class a would probably be a bit higher dont you think...and that guy made an even better point with the close at the end of the game and pass the ball around for 20 seconds....to be honest i havnt seen a class b game since last year when i stopped watchin it because there was some tournement in minot where a team was up by 4 with 2 minutes left and the team that was winning help the ball without shooting for i think it was like a minute and twenty seconds...do you think that is fair???
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:15 am

smart source wrote:
baseball wrote:
Number7 wrote:I dont have an issued with how many points any team in any class scores concerning the shot clock. The thing I hate to see is at state/regional tournaments a team gets a 5-6 point lead with 6-7 minutes to go and holds it forever. Thats not basketball and does nothing good for the game. During big games, everything is magnified and I think that includes the need for a shot clock.


which again is can be countered by pressure defense and not just sit back and let them hold it. im not saying get up in his shirt, because like i said before not every class B school has the numbers to do that because that takes alot of energy. but get close enough to get a ref to start a 5 count and make the ball handler make a play.


wait a second conditioning has nothing to do with how many athletes you have class a and class b teams generally dress the same amount of kids and idk but ive always been taught since i was young you might not have the talent to be an offensive star but anyone can play defense and be good at it so your it takes to much energy argument is pointless anyone of those class b teams could be in just as good of shape as any class a teams players its just hard work so there you go there is your difference the defense for one thing wouldn't it be harder to score more points with the defense bismarck plays then a 2-3 zone i would think so and as far as you posting the top tier teams ppg did you get the average class a to class b ppg...dont really because i know that would be nearly impossible to do but class a would probably be a bit higher dont you think...and that guy made an even better point with the close at the end of the game and pass the ball around for 20 seconds....to be honest i havnt seen a class b game since last year when i stopped watchin it because there was some tournement in minot where a team was up by 4 with 2 minutes left and the team that was winning help the ball without shooting for i think it was like a minute and twenty seconds...do you think that is fair???


DONT LET THEM HOLD IT? my defense takes energy thing wasnt about condition, its about numbers. yes they dress the same for Varsity at both level but the difference is everyone that dress for an A varsity team is a varsity player. whereas for a B varsity team, the kids on the middle to the end of the bench are on the team because they need to fill it out. my point was do you want a player who is Varsity ready on the court late to play that defense or a fresh man who is a JV player on the team to fill up the roster? and if you think it takes equal amount of energy to play offense as it does defense, you obviously havent played defense before

And them top-teir teams i did post i did transfer the Class A ppg to Class B ppg....notice the parenthesis....with a little mathematical knowhow, that i learned at a class b school, its very easy to make that adjustment...
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Re: A vs. B

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:20 am

Why isn't that fair? The other team could pressure and go for a steal or foul and put them to the line and get the ball back. I just don't get why people make that argument about things not being fair. Life isn't fair. One team is going to be better than the other. One team will win and one will lose. That's how it goes. If that team has worked hard to get that 4 point lead with 2 min left in the game they can do anything they want to to try to keep it. The other team has to adjust and try everything it can to get the ball back, stop them, and score to try to win. That's how bball works. Get used to it.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Wed Jan 30, 2008 11:28 am

ndlionsfan wrote:Why isn't that fair? The other team could pressure and go for a steal or foul and put them to the line and get the ball back. I just don't get why people make that argument about things not being fair. Life isn't fair. One team is going to be better than the other. One team will win and one will lose. That's how it goes. If that team has worked hard to get that 4 point lead with 2 min left in the game they can do anything they want to to try to keep it. The other team has to adjust and try everything it can to get the ball back, stop them, and score to try to win. That's how bball works. Get used to it.


ive said it before too that its only the team thats losing that complains about the shot clock and the team "stalling", but ask anyone and if the tables were turned and they had the lead they WOULD do the exact same thing.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby ndlionsfan » Wed Jan 30, 2008 2:46 pm

Here is what these same Class B schools would average ppg if they had the 4 extra min that Class A does. Maybe this will put it in a different perspective for those that have trouble comparing.

Class B
Central Cass - 73.8 PPG
Lisbon - 80.0 PPG
North Border - 77.5 PPG
Four Winds - 91.9 PPG
Steele-Dawson - 77.4 PPG
Turtle-Lake - 92.9 PPG
Watford City - 87.9 PPG
Parshall - 87.2 PPG
Dunsieth - 74.3 PPG
Warwick - 94.2 PPG
New Rockford - 87.4 PPG
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Wed Jan 30, 2008 4:30 pm

thank you ndlionsfan, i guess i thought it was clear the way i did it but o well haha
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Re: A vs. B

Postby smart source » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:25 pm

ok what i was saying witht he points per game of all of class b and all of class a and i know you cant do it because thats way to much work but what im saying is say there are 150 b teams so take all of their ppg divide by 150 to get a single average and do the same to class a and im saying class a is high because everyone here knows unless they are kidding themselves that there are a lot of class b teams that simply sit back and stall all game and there is no denying that....and as far as the energy thing i know defense takes way more enery than offense does but what i was saying is that class b players regardless of athletic ability can all be in shape there is no excuse why a b player could be as in good of shape as class a players....and with defense think of it this way....mabey if there was a shot clock class b teams could learn how to really play defense and i dont mean a semi preessure defense i mean an in your face suffocating defense class a teams can do this because they have to for no more than 35 seconds at a time if you tried that at class b you would get worn out because your trying to do that for 45-50 seconds at a time.....put it this way name one class b team that would be able to run that type of defense...none and its because no shot clock doesnt allow that to happen...and if you play basketball without a shot clock its way different trust me i played without one and with one and if you have never played with one it is a totally different ball game and you wont understand that until you actually play with one and ask any class a player that because they dont start using it till i think soph. year
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Wed Jan 30, 2008 5:43 pm

Watch the Steele-Dawson girls play and tell me no teams play that type of defense because the shot clock doesnt allow them. granted this whole topic has been aobut boys but if a girls team can do it, i think a guys team can (trinity).

The B teams i mentioned average a combined 70.8 PPG. The A teams average 60.4 PPG in the adjusted 32 minutes. thats 79.6 to 67.9 in favor of class B is the 36 minute game. you also must be one of the guys who thinks if a team holds the ball for more then 25 seconds its stalling. said it before and ill say it again....stalling and patience are not the same thing....stalling is standing with the ball on your hip at the halfline for 40 seconds while the defense just sits back. passing the ball around the court for 40 seconds is not stalling, unless its a 4 corner passing, if it goes along the perimeter all within 25 feet of the hoop...thats patience and looking for a good shot. good teams dont stall, good teams are patient.
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Re: A vs. B

Postby smart source » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:39 pm

baseball wrote:Watch the Steele-Dawson girls play and tell me no teams play that type of defense because the shot clock doesnt allow them. granted this whole topic has been aobut boys but if a girls team can do it, i think a guys team can (trinity).

The B teams i mentioned average a combined 70.8 PPG. The A teams average 60.4 PPG in the adjusted 32 minutes. thats 79.6 to 67.9 in favor of class B is the 36 minute game. you also must be one of the guys who thinks if a team holds the ball for more then 25 seconds its stalling. said it before and ill say it again....stalling and patience are not the same thing....stalling is standing with the ball on your hip at the halfline for 40 seconds while the defense just sits back. passing the ball around the court for 40 seconds is not stalling, unless its a 4 corner passing, if it goes along the perimeter all within 25 feet of the hoop...thats patience and looking for a good shot. good teams dont stall, good teams are patient.


yea i can read i know the b teams you mentioned i know im saying every single solitary team in the state class a and class b if you found the average of both classes ppg...and your naming one 2 teams in the state if you had to guess do you think that the majority of class b teams run a zone or a man to man d meant to cause turnovers
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Re: A vs. B

Postby cubsfan » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:39 pm

My question is: Why break something that is broken?
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Re: A vs. B

Postby baseball » Wed Jan 30, 2008 6:44 pm

smart source wrote:
baseball wrote:Watch the Steele-Dawson girls play and tell me no teams play that type of defense because the shot clock doesnt allow them. granted this whole topic has been aobut boys but if a girls team can do it, i think a guys team can (trinity).

The B teams i mentioned average a combined 70.8 PPG. The A teams average 60.4 PPG in the adjusted 32 minutes. thats 79.6 to 67.9 in favor of class B is the 36 minute game. you also must be one of the guys who thinks if a team holds the ball for more then 25 seconds its stalling. said it before and ill say it again....stalling and patience are not the same thing....stalling is standing with the ball on your hip at the halfline for 40 seconds while the defense just sits back. passing the ball around the court for 40 seconds is not stalling, unless its a 4 corner passing, if it goes along the perimeter all within 25 feet of the hoop...thats patience and looking for a good shot. good teams dont stall, good teams are patient.


yea i can read i know the b teams you mentioned i know im saying every single solitary team in the state class a and class b if you found the average of both classes ppg...and your naming one 2 teams in the state if you had to guess do you think that the majority of class b teams run a zone or a man to man d meant to cause turnovers


most teams will run a man to man unless its an extended 1-3-1 or 1-2-2 where they can trap. Zones are mainly used when a team cant match up inside or prevent a team from getting to the rim and to make htem hit outside shots in order to beat you. if your going to try and force a turnover a 2-3 wouldnt be your best bet, man would be....ball pressure + denied passing lanes = turnovers
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Re: A vs. B

Postby smart source » Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:07 pm

baseball wrote:
smart source wrote:
baseball wrote:Watch the Steele-Dawson girls play and tell me no teams play that type of defense because the shot clock doesnt allow them. granted this whole topic has been aobut boys but if a girls team can do it, i think a guys team can (trinity).

The B teams i mentioned average a combined 70.8 PPG. The A teams average 60.4 PPG in the adjusted 32 minutes. thats 79.6 to 67.9 in favor of class B is the 36 minute game. you also must be one of the guys who thinks if a team holds the ball for more then 25 seconds its stalling. said it before and ill say it again....stalling and patience are not the same thing....stalling is standing with the ball on your hip at the halfline for 40 seconds while the defense just sits back. passing the ball around the court for 40 seconds is not stalling, unless its a 4 corner passing, if it goes along the perimeter all within 25 feet of the hoop...thats patience and looking for a good shot. good teams dont stall, good teams are patient.


yea i can read i know the b teams you mentioned i know im saying every single solitary team in the state class a and class b if you found the average of both classes ppg...and your naming one 2 teams in the state if you had to guess do you think that the majority of class b teams run a zone or a man to man d meant to cause turnovers


most teams will run a man to man unless its an extended 1-3-1 or 1-2-2 where they can trap. Zones are mainly used when a team cant match up inside or prevent a team from getting to the rim and to make htem hit outside shots in order to beat you. if your going to try and force a turnover a 2-3 wouldnt be your best bet, man would be....ball pressure + denied passing lanes = turnovers




thanks coach k....i played basketball for a long time i know the purpose and thats not what i asked i said do you think in your own opinion that more team in class b run zone than teams that run a man pressure d
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