The end of an era

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The end of an era

Postby sportsking09 » Sat May 16, 2009 1:15 pm

The state board of higher education has officially decided to end the use of the fighting sioux nickname, unless the university can get permission to a 30 year agreement by october 01, 2009(impossible). it saddens me that it has come to this but i shall still wear my sioux jersey proudly while attending FIGHTING SIOUX hockey games at the ralph from now on.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby duke_boy90 » Sat May 16, 2009 10:15 pm

This is very sad indeed. And so the University of North Dakota fighting blizzards era begins!
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Re: The end of an era

Postby baseball » Sun May 17, 2009 12:43 am

sportsking09 wrote:The state board of higher education has officially decided to end the use of the fighting sioux nickname, unless the university can get permission to a 30 year agreement by october 01, 2009(impossible). it saddens me that it has come to this but i shall still wear my sioux jersey proudly while attending FIGHTING SIOUX hockey games at the ralph from now on.


are they even going to be playing in the ralph? if so, will it even be called the ralph? I've heard 2 stories....1 if they change the nickname ralph and betty englestad will come out of the name and 2 that if its changed they closed the buildings down.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Flip » Sun May 17, 2009 1:04 am

duke_boy90 wrote:This is very sad indeed. And so the University of North Dakota fighting lizzards era begins!

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Re: The end of an era

Postby Rodgers4ever » Sun May 17, 2009 8:34 pm

It is a pity that this name is changing. This whole ordeal turned into one big p"""ing match between the Native Americans and the school. From what I heard the Standing Rock tribe felt that because of the fighting in the name it adds negative connatation to the Natives as a whole. I can see where they are coming from with this as it may raise anti-Native American feelings. However, I feel that all this decision has done is raise even more negative feelings toward natvie americans than before. Because I can tell you there are now 13,000 p***ed off students at UND who want their nickname and these people will most like likely hold this judgement against Native Americans for the rest of their lives. The whole point of this battle was to gain respect from the rest of the world for their country and their people. In my opinion no one ever disrespected them. I gave my upmost respect to the Natives and feel they should be proud that a school would be willing to honor them and their history. However in leu of this whole ordeal, they have lost my respect for good...I only have one more thing to say:

LONG LIVE THE FIGHTING SIOUX
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Re: The end of an era

Postby baseball » Mon May 18, 2009 1:18 am

the dumbest part about it is that the natives passed it....its the higher ed that turned it down
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Rodgers4ever » Mon May 18, 2009 9:57 am

From what I have heard, the school needed consent from the tribal councils. The Spirit Lake Tribe put the decision to a vote and the name was passed, so their tribal council told the state higher board that they wanted the name. The problem lies with the Standing Rock Tribe. From the indications that I have seen, the majority of them would also like to keep the nickname, but their tribal council never put it to a vote. They instead, only kept the vote within the council itself and decided that it was somehow dishonorable to keep the nickname. The higher board said that they needed consent of both tribal councils. Its a shame a small group of people are ruining something that a large number of their people really want
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Re: The end of an era

Postby AC-DC » Sun Jul 12, 2009 1:26 pm

A terrible shame in-deed. Any bets on UND becoming just another second-rate school? My kids are even considering college at Minnesota! Not much difference between a Gopher and a Flickertail any way, except maybe pride and tradition. ND apparently has neither.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Coach Rerick » Tue Jul 21, 2009 12:43 pm

My understanding is that the Sioux portion of the nickname is challenged as much as the Fighting portion. I may be wrong about that. Either way, I can't believe this gets as much attention as it does. This nickname has been in place for less than 80 years, that's roughly 60% of the school's history, and it was really only chosen as an antagonist to the Bison mascot/logo/name. If supporters are so hung up on this name, why aren't they lamenting the almost 50 years of being the Flickertails?? Or, better yet, why does no one complain that the jerseys aren't trimmed in pink, which is more of an official color than either white or black??

That aside, you guys can't be serious about changing your support for a school based on the name of the team. UND is UND whether they are called the Fighting Sioux, the Flickertails, or the Mighty Octopi. You might be frustrated because the name is new, but the coaches, players, personnel, etc. are all still the same. Dickinson State, GF Central, Wahpeton, and Devils Lake have all gone through big name changes in the recent past, and they are still well supported, or, if you prefer, look at the number of schools that have changed names because of co-ops. Heck, even UND itself has been through this before - anyone think there is a 90 year old out there who still doesn't cheer for the Sioux because they are supposed to be the Flickertails forever?

UND won't become a lesser school because of a name change. They'll sell new merchandise with a new name on it, some of you won't buy it to prove a point, and they'll keep on being the same school they've always been. I really have a hard time believing that people's entire support of these programs is based on their name. I love VCSU, and I'm Viking Pride through and through, but if someone with more authority than I have decides that "Viking" is offensive and my school will now be the VCSU Whatevers, I'm still going to show up at games, sing the fight song, and support the school.

For the record, I'm neither for or against the name change. To me, it's just a name. I just need to see good football in a good venue.

For the record (part two), I don't think UND is really looking at the Mighty Octopi as a nickname. I thought I'd better clear that up for some of the slower posters on this site.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Indians Alumni » Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:00 am

Coach Rerick wrote:My understanding is that the Sioux portion of the nickname is challenged as much as the Fighting portion. I may be wrong about that. Either way, I can't believe this gets as much attention as it does. This nickname has been in place for less than 80 years, that's roughly 60% of the school's history, and it was really only chosen as an antagonist to the Bison mascot/logo/name. If supporters are so hung up on this name, why aren't they lamenting the almost 50 years of being the Flickertails?? Or, better yet, why does no one complain that the jerseys aren't trimmed in pink, which is more of an official color than either white or black??

That aside, you guys can't be serious about changing your support for a school based on the name of the team. UND is UND whether they are called the Fighting Sioux, the Flickertails, or the Mighty Octopi. You might be frustrated because the name is new, but the coaches, players, personnel, etc. are all still the same. Dickinson State, GF Central, Wahpeton, and Devils Lake have all gone through big name changes in the recent past, and they are still well supported, or, if you prefer, look at the number of schools that have changed names because of co-ops. Heck, even UND itself has been through this before - anyone think there is a 90 year old out there who still doesn't cheer for the Sioux because they are supposed to be the Flickertails forever?

UND won't become a lesser school because of a name change. They'll sell new merchandise with a new name on it, some of you won't buy it to prove a point, and they'll keep on being the same school they've always been. I really have a hard time believing that people's entire support of these programs is based on their name. I love VCSU, and I'm Viking Pride through and through, but if someone with more authority than I have decides that "Viking" is offensive and my school will now be the VCSU Whatevers, I'm still going to show up at games, sing the fight song, and support the school.

For the record, I'm neither for or against the name change. To me, it's just a name. I just need to see good football in a good venue.

For the record (part two), I don't think UND is really looking at the Mighty Octopi as a nickname. I thought I'd better clear that up for some of the slower posters on this site.



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Re: The end of an era

Postby classB4ever » Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:02 pm

Coach Rerick, can you explain why the "Fighting Irish" should not have to change their name? There are two parts to their name, "Fighting" which is part of the NCAA ruling and "Irish" which is part of the NCAA ruling. The rulings include a part of your name which promotes violence and a part of your name regarding ethnicity. Is it because a majority of people want to keep it? Even if some Irish don't? Notre Dame was never even included in the original list, if my memory serves me correct. Why is there a difference?
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Coach Rerick » Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:36 pm

classB4ever wrote:Coach Rerick, can you explain why the "Fighting Irish" should not have to change their name? There are two parts to their name, "Fighting" which is part of the NCAA ruling and "Irish" which is part of the NCAA ruling. The rulings include a part of your name which promotes violence and a part of your name regarding ethnicity. Is it because a majority of people want to keep it? Even if some Irish don't? Notre Dame was never even included in the original list, if my memory serves me correct. Why is there a difference?


I wish I knew the answer to that. If I had to take a guess, I would say you're correct. It would be quite a bit tougher for the Irish as an organization to band together some leadership and challenge the nickname. Using the Sioux as an example, the tribal council was able to make their statement and their challenge on behalf of their people. I'm not sure where that kind of a challenge would come from with the Irish ethnicity...from their government, I suppose, if anything. I really don't know. I suppose the same question could be asked about the Fighting Scots.

If the Irish or Scottish people were to band together to challenge the names, I'd be interested in knowing how the final decision would be made. In the case of the Sioux, Illini, and Seminoles, it's been pretty clear-cut based on the tribal council. Since the Irish and Scottish people are governed through the United Kingdom, it would make for an interesting (and probably complicated) argument.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby classB4ever » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:15 pm

Thanks for the reply.
The entire nickname/mascot debate is a tough one. The NCAA started with a ruling including all ethnic names and violent words in the college's name. Therefore, no difference between Fighting Irish and Fighting Sioux. Then, switched it to only include colleges with Native American Mascots. I believe there were 32 colleges at that point. Any team with a Native American mascot could not participate in NCAA post season tournaments, but this did not effect Division 1 football programs, because the bowl system is not considered a "playoff" format. Isn't that convenient. There was also something to do with Native American mascots, but UND did not have a mascot, so they later changed the wording to take care of teams without mascots but included nicknames. After a 4 year "self evaluation" process, they narrowed it to 18 schools. The narrowing of the field is quite open for debate as well. A Carolina school taken off because they stated over 20% of their students were Native American. Should that matter?
I guess my point is that the way the NCAA committee went forward with this is so ridiculous that it is hard to back them on the entire process.
I have a difficult question, but would like to throw it out there. Do you believe that colleges which have to change their names from Native American names/mascots, should continue to offer the large amount of Native American scholarships and Native American programs that they do now? Please keep this civil, as I think a lot of people would like to know how others feel about this.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby baseball » Thu Aug 20, 2009 5:10 pm

AC-DC wrote:A terrible shame in-deed. Any bets on UND becoming just another second-rate school? My kids are even considering college at Minnesota! Not much difference between a Gopher and a Flickertail any way, except maybe pride and tradition. ND apparently has neither.


glad your ok with your kids picking a college based on the nickname.....thats a reasonable excuse not to go to UND.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby bisonslayer » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:07 pm

Coach Rerick wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Coach Rerick, can you explain why the "Fighting Irish" should not have to change their name? There are two parts to their name, "Fighting" which is part of the NCAA ruling and "Irish" which is part of the NCAA ruling. The rulings include a part of your name which promotes violence and a part of your name regarding ethnicity. Is it because a majority of people want to keep it? Even if some Irish don't? Notre Dame was never even included in the original list, if my memory serves me correct. Why is there a difference?


I wish I knew the answer to that. If I had to take a guess, I would say you're correct. It would be quite a bit tougher for the Irish as an organization to band together some leadership and challenge the nickname. Using the Sioux as an example, the tribal council was able to make their statement and their challenge on behalf of their people. I'm not sure where that kind of a challenge would come from with the Irish ethnicity...from their government, I suppose, if anything. I really don't know. I suppose the same question could be asked about the Fighting Scots.

If the Irish or Scottish people were to band together to challenge the names, I'd be interested in knowing how the final decision would be made. In the case of the Sioux, Illini, and Seminoles, it's been pretty clear-cut based on the tribal council. Since the Irish and Scottish people are governed through the United Kingdom, it would make for an interesting (and probably complicated) argument.


Why is there a difference between the sioux and the irish? Because the sioux culture and native americans had there land and country taken away. The irish did not suffer like the Native Americans, they were put on reservations. Irish that were treated bad in Ireland had the opportunity for better (immigrate to America). Native American's didn't have that choice. Thats why there no opposition to the Fighting Irish. Thats the one argument i am sick of hearing, I am all for the seminoles and Illini arguments, however the Irish argument doesn't have much momentum.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Coach Rerick » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:26 pm

bisonslayer wrote:
Coach Rerick wrote:
classB4ever wrote:Coach Rerick, can you explain why the "Fighting Irish" should not have to change their name? There are two parts to their name, "Fighting" which is part of the NCAA ruling and "Irish" which is part of the NCAA ruling. The rulings include a part of your name which promotes violence and a part of your name regarding ethnicity. Is it because a majority of people want to keep it? Even if some Irish don't? Notre Dame was never even included in the original list, if my memory serves me correct. Why is there a difference?


I wish I knew the answer to that. If I had to take a guess, I would say you're correct. It would be quite a bit tougher for the Irish as an organization to band together some leadership and challenge the nickname. Using the Sioux as an example, the tribal council was able to make their statement and their challenge on behalf of their people. I'm not sure where that kind of a challenge would come from with the Irish ethnicity...from their government, I suppose, if anything. I really don't know. I suppose the same question could be asked about the Fighting Scots.

If the Irish or Scottish people were to band together to challenge the names, I'd be interested in knowing how the final decision would be made. In the case of the Sioux, Illini, and Seminoles, it's been pretty clear-cut based on the tribal council. Since the Irish and Scottish people are governed through the United Kingdom, it would make for an interesting (and probably complicated) argument.


Why is there a difference between the sioux and the irish? Because the sioux culture and native americans had there land and country taken away. The irish did not suffer like the Native Americans, they were put on reservations. Irish that were treated bad in Ireland had the opportunity for better (immigrate to America). Native American's didn't have that choice. Thats why there no opposition to the Fighting Irish. Thats the one argument i am sick of hearing, I am all for the seminoles and Illini arguments, however the Irish argument doesn't have much momentum.


Sorry, Slayer, but I'm going to have to disagree with your logic on this based on a historical perspective. While I'm a little foggy on exact dates, the Louisiana Purchase was in the early 1800's, so I'm guessing reservations and sactions against Native Americans probably wasn't widespread until the mid to late 1800's (I'm pretty sure the worst of the laws went into effect in the early 1900's). So, historically, Native Americans have had less than 200 years of oppression.

The Irish, on the other hand, were first bullied around by the English in the mid 1400's. By the early 1600's, England had almost completely taken over the country, and the Irish weren't allowed to hold office, own land, etc. etc (like you mentioned with the Native Amer. losing their land/country). The mass emigration to the US from other countries was in the mid to late 1800's (hence the population expansion into the midwest which led to the implementation of reservations). That means the Irish were "fighting" oppression for 400 years - twice as long as any Native American tribe in the US. The Irish revolutions against the English government during that time is what made the "Fighting" stereotype so common for the Irish in the first place. To say that an argument against the name "Fighting Irish" doesn't have much momentum because the Irish weren't treated as badly as the Natives is a fallacy in logic. The Irish had it just as bad for twice as long. I'd say that if the Irish people wanted to challenge Notre Dame's mascot and name, they'd have just as good of an argument as the Sioux.

Studying British literature and history is a hobby of mine. Sorry for the lesson; no disrespect intended.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby classB4ever » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:00 am

2 good replies. However, I thought the problem at hand was the fact that the use of imagery, nicknames and mascots of people (any ethnic group) was disrespectful and hurtful. Isn't that what this whole argument is about? When and why a group of people were oppressed should have no bearing on the case. I have heard that opposing fans of UND chanting Sioux "s--k" is part of the problem. However, is it any worse then foes of Notre Dame chanting Irish "s--k"? Show me the difference. And should it really matter whether the people were oppressed at all?
I really think that this thing needs to be simplified. I personally have not and would not be offended by this, as long as people understand the context for what it is being used. It is not a personal bash. I also believe that with this nickname debate bringing the feelings of Native Americans to the forefront, that fans of opposing teams will take this into account and refrain from such chants. Just one person's opinion.
Would still like to here some input from you on my previous question.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Coach Rerick » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:08 pm

classB4ever wrote:Would still like to here some input from you on my previous question.


I think it's a dangerous question! I'll refer back to something I said in a previous post. It's just a nickname. Removing the scholarship opportunities as compensation for removing the name sounds like spite, to me. If a school is committed towards awarding scholarships to historically disadvantaged socioeconomic groups, then the nickname shouldn't have anything to do with it.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby flatlander » Fri Aug 21, 2009 3:43 pm

Notre Dame is totally different situation with their nickname. When Notre Dame chose "Fighting Irish" their student body was predominately Irish and they were saying, "This was who we are." Heck, more than half of Notre Dame's Presidents have had Irish names.

Compare that to UND. How many Sioux students were enrolled at UND in 1935? I'm guessing zero. I'd be surprised if UND admitted a Sioux tribal member before the 1960's. And, obviously, UND has never had a President with a Sioux name.

Likewise, if a school at Standing Rock decides to call themselves the Fighting Sioux, that'd be a statement of their identity, something that UND can never claim. That's the difference.

The whole "we were victimized" angle seems pathetic to me. Why play the victim? The Sioux people's ownership of their own name and culture should be respected by UND (and, largely, I think it has), but the Sioux people shouldn't claim that victimhood gives them that right when basic decency and fairness already do. Likewise, the "fighting" part shouldn't even be brought up, nor should the fact the word "sioux" has a negative connotation - at least not as long as the Sioux call themselves Sioux - only after the tribes totally switch over to the Dakota/Lakota/Nakota names will I buy that argument.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby classB4ever » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:11 pm

flatlander, that was an extremely good post. I guess my comparison between Notre Dame and UND was based more on the angle of disrespectful chants and name calling. My point is that whether an opposing fan is chanting UND s--ks, NDSU s--ks or their mascot s--ks is really a moot point. It really shouldn't be taken personally, in my own opinion.
Addressing an issue with your reply. You state that originally Notre Dame was predominantly Irish. I think it would be safe to say that the percentage has changed quite a lot and that number has went down. On the other hand, you state that UND originally had very few if any Native American students, but I would guess now, they have a very respectful number. Wouldn't that indicate that using the Fighting Sioux nickname has really advanced the Native American's cause as far as an education at UND goes?
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Re: The end of an era

Postby flatlander » Fri Aug 21, 2009 5:51 pm

While the student body has changed at Notre Dame, it would be kind of insulting to their alumni and such to suggest that Irishness is not a huge part of Notre Dame's past, present, and future. UND has no Sioux roots and a minuscule Sioux presence (I'm guessing 100 Sioux out of the 388 students claiming Indian descent). This is despite UND getting millions and millions of tax dollars for Indian programs. What does that mean? Indian programs are a huge cash cow at UND... they could pay full tuition for every Sioux kid who enrolls (but they don't) and still make a lot of money.

Personally, this is just my opinion and reasonable people can disagree with me and possibly convince me otherwise, but NO I do not think the nickname has helped Sioux causes at all at UND - in fact, exactly the opposite. What motivated UND to get involved with the tribes, not just the Sioux, was a genuine desire to serve the state. Now, that seems to have changed for the worse. In too many peoples' minds this service has been linked to the nickname and, more and more, all the nickname seems to generate is the very worst kinds of threats and insults rather than doing anything beneficial.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby bisonslayer » Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:22 pm

Coach Rerick, good points. When I said the "Fighting Irish" lacks momentum for a case, it does. For any change, there needs to be a group willing to lead that change. The Irish isn't up for debate, the alumni are proud of that nickname, and theres no group out there trying to get it changed. I am Irish, so does that mean I can fight for them to change it? No, and its not the case with the Native Americans, they have tribes and group who lead the opposition for UND Nickname.

As far as the 400 years of oppression, I understand that. That was in In Europe, however, the 200 years of oppression for the Native Americans, some of that happened on our own soil we call North Dakota. Thats the biggest reason I feel like the "Fighting Irish" case lacks the momentum. And when I mean momentum, I mean more current momentum. If there were Irish oppression and reservations around South Bend within the last 200 years I could understand.

And one last point, this heres America. Greatest country in the world, get your British Literature out of here. Lol, only joking with you.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby Coach Rerick » Sat Aug 22, 2009 2:43 pm

bisonslayer wrote:

And one last point, this heres America. Greatest country in the world, get your British Literature out of here. Lol, only joking with you.


:D
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Re: The end of an era

Postby The Schwab » Mon Aug 24, 2009 10:55 am

I am going to stay away from this debate on the sioux nickname, but i will shed light on why Illinois and FSU wont have to change their nicknames. In the case of the University of Illinois, the illini were a ficticious tribe (not real). And FSU has complete support of the Seminole tribe in Florida.
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Re: The end of an era

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Aug 24, 2009 11:15 am

The Schwab is back!!! Did you lose internet access for the summer???

Back on topic, I have been watching this one very closely because this is always a heated debate and I have to commend the people who have posted for having a very civil debate without all the trash talking and name calling that usually goes with this subject.
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