Final four picks...

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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Fri Dec 25, 2009 7:11 pm

Baseball, to your point of the year he had to coach players he didn't recruit, no coach does well with that. Typically the players don't want to play for him (if they did they would signed at his school). Every coach does best when he can recruit players that he likes in his system.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Fri Dec 25, 2009 8:03 pm

gobison#6 wrote:
baseball wrote:
Indy5 wrote: and Roy Williams is just such a great coach that they will be there.



Coach or recruiter??

Just a few numbers for you. Since the 01-02 seascon, Roy Williams teams are 246-52 (.825 winning percentage). in games that his teams score less then 80 points he is 60-33 (.645). games they score 80+, he is 186-19 (.907). teams that he coaches cant win low scoring games. 03-04 season was the only season he wasnt able to coach players he recruited, instead he had a team built for him. coincidentally, this was the only year he won less then 20 games...19-11. 05-06, was the year his whole team basically bolted for the NBA and he went 23-8. those were the only 2 years this decade he didnt win 30 games. good coaches can win ugly games. Roy Williams, like John Calipari, is a recruiter who turns loose his players and alot of times they win by just being more talented. he has always struggled in low scoring/close games.

He must be doing something besides throwing five super athletic guys out on the court. Even if you have the superior team you need a game plan which is put together by your coach.


His game plan is to run, run, and run. im not saying he doesnt gameplan. Im saying he doesnt adjust, which is what coaching actually is. anyone can draw up a gameplan, the best coaches are the ones who can adjust on the fly if the said gameplan isnt working and still have a smooth team on the floor. if its a slow, grind it out game...he has nothing. if the opponent is able to run with them, he just tells his teams to run faster. he doesnt seem to understand momentum either. in the 08 Final Four he called a grand total of ONE timeout in the first half.
Kansas up 11-6...first media timeout
Kansas up 23-10...second media timeout
Kansas up 38-12...Roy finally calls timeout

The second half wasnt any better. he called a timeout with 4:47 left with the score 69-61. Kansas then goes on a 15-2 run and he waits until there is 18 seconds left in the game to call a timeout.

IMO...hes a top 3 recruiter. but not a top 10 coaches. hes in the same boat as Rick Barnes at Texas and Calipari..
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:10 am

You act like if the game isn't a toal track meet, he is terrible. He still had a .645 winning percentage when his teams score less than 80. Against bad teams, they put up over 80 so that eliminates the cupcake games, so that means they win that high of percentage in pretty tough games.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Sat Dec 26, 2009 2:11 am

he still has a winning percentage of .645, yes....thats the same as saying a 22-12 season is a success at UNC. that doesnt really define a "great" coach when you have teams as talented as he does. to sum it up..the talent takes his coaching further then his coaching takes the talent...

im not denying his track record...hes been to a number of final fours and won 2 titles, you cant take that away from him. but if i had to pick a coach to draw up a play with less then 10 seconds left and you need a bucket, he's not even a candidate. and thats how i define coaching..not throwing the best talent on the floor.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 3:53 pm

You make some very valid points but if I'm an AD I want to hire him to coach at my school (Unless Jim Boeheim or Jay Wright are availible)
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:27 pm

I agree, I would take him at a school as well. I didnt want this to sound like a Roy bashing as much as it did haha. he produces wins and thats all you can ask for. i just dont understand him on the short list of "great" coaches, when his teaching/coaching skills arent that good haha....but the guy gets wins, and like i said thats all you can ask for.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:11 pm

I know your arguement about him not being a good coach but I think this year will be a test of his coaching abilities. He known has a young team and no star player, just a lot of average players with great athletism. He gameplan may be to run but when you coach a up-tempo team there is more to it than just say" Play pressure D and get the board and run as fast as you can"
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Flip » Sat Dec 26, 2009 7:39 pm

Indy5 wrote:I know your arguement about him not being a good coach but I think this year will be a test of his coaching abilities. He known has a young team and no star player, just a lot of average players with great athletism. He gameplan may be to run but when you coach a up-tempo team there is more to it than just say" Play pressure D and get the board and run as fast as you can"

Ed Davis was projected as a top 5 pick had he declared for the NBA draft last year.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:46 pm

Really? I think that would be based on potential because he's not even top 3 on their team. He's 6'10-11 and long. Plus he's only a sophomore so the scouts probably think he's got room to improve but right now, he's not that good.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Flip » Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:26 am

ESPN's Chad Ford has him ranked #3 in the 2010 class behind John Wall and Derrick Favors. But before he said he was coming back to school he was in that 5ish range last year. Good athlete too bad he doesn't have any coaching :)
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby duke_boy90 » Sun Dec 27, 2009 1:02 am

I think good coaching and good recruiting just go hand in hand. You can make the same argument you made for Roy for any other big time program in the nation. Coach K, Jim Calhoun, John Calapari, Rick Barnes, Bill Self. Are these guys just good recruiters or coaches? Why not both.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball18 » Tue Dec 29, 2009 3:04 pm

west virginia reminds me of last years UConn... two seasons ago UConn was bounced in the first round then came back the next season and made the Final Four. WVA was bounced in the first round last season. hmmm....
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Tue Dec 29, 2009 9:28 pm

UConn was a 4 seed and got upset by San Diego. UWV losing to Dayton wasn't nearly as big an upset, that was a very even game. I agree tho WV looks like a legit final four contender, althought didnt look it tonight haha
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby duke_boy90 » Wed Dec 30, 2009 1:52 am

West Virginia's starters all between 6'7" and 6'9". I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing yet. It definitely gives them a lot of length defensively
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Fri Jan 01, 2010 6:25 pm

West Virginaia just got beat down by unbeaten Purdue 77-62.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby BballFan1307 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 12:48 am

Indy5 wrote:Really? I think that would be based on potential because he's not even top 3 on their team. He's 6'10-11 and long. Plus he's only a sophomore so the scouts probably think he's got room to improve but right now, he's not that good.


Probably one of the dumbest things i've ever seen posted on this site. For one, he is the best player on UNC's team. He's 6'10 long, athletic, can score down low and is a force on defense. He's not that good? Averaging 15 points 10 rebounds and 3 blocks a game shooting 65% from the field, in 26 minutes per game seems pretty good to me. (7 double doubles) Specially when he's been a little passive on offense early on just scoring off of offensive rebounds. Now they've realized he's the number one option and i can see his ppg moving up to 18 by the end of the season.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Jan 02, 2010 1:26 am

Yeah the last two times I've watched him, he's impressed me. But when I said that I had watched him 2 or 3 times and was more impressed by Thompson. Now he has been playing much better since their feeding him the ball.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby i am legend » Tue Jan 05, 2010 8:59 pm

Indy5 wrote:Here's my predictions:

Kansas- They return their top 8 or 9 scorers off of a good team from last year. Add the diaper dandy Henry in there plus Collins's improvement and you got a team just like last years North Carolina squad.

Texas- With Pittman down low being a monster, James doing everything one can think of, and two great freshman guards, they look very impressive so far.

Last two spots are a mystery. I see a few people have picked Ohio State and one guy threw Butler out there. Butler will not make the elite eight nonetheless the final four. Howard cant make a layup, their guards are average, and Hayward is their only offensive weapon. The only ranked team they beat was a Ohio State team without their best player and they barely one. Plus, Ohio State looked awful that game. Even if Turner comes back healthy, no way Ohio State does anything in the tourney.

With that said, here are some teams that could compete for the last two spots:

Syracuse- Will have some problems scoring in the Big East but with their length in that stiffling 2-3 zone they will be tough.

West Virginia- Ebanks and Butler are looking oustanding and if they can hit the open 3( something they've have trouble with in the past) they will make some noise. Also, I think they'll be hungry to avenge that opening round loss to Dayton last year. Thanks guys, way to wreck my bracket...

Kentucky-Wall and Blesode are just ridiculous and with Patterson down low, they'll be right there. Calipari will have them ready to play come tourney time.

Villanova- Reyndols is the most underrated player in the country (and maybe the best). Jay Wright is an awesome coach and they'll do some damage.

North Carolina- Don't have a star but their really athletic like always and Roy Williams is just such a great coach that they will be there.


Im pretty sure that butler could make the final 4, and at least the elite 8. Yah they didnt win all the ranked games they played but they stayed close and come march thats all you need to pull of those upsets. They are also a great 3 point shooting team, so if they get hot for a couple of nights they could be in the final 4.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby i am legend » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:21 pm

cornell just proved the other night that kansas is beatable.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:28 pm

they are beatable...but they wont get beat :)
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Indy5 » Sat Jan 09, 2010 2:59 pm

Of course their beatable. Every college team is because they are 19-23 year old kids. You never really know what type of team might show up. Even last year's North Carolina team (which was leaps and bounds better than anyone in the country) lost something like 4 games throughout the year. Granted one was in the ACC tourney without Lawson.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby Flip » Wed Jan 13, 2010 11:47 pm

Heard and interesting stat tonight. Roy Williams has the best road winning percentage in the history of the ACC. Too bad opposing coaches don't know what Baseball knows.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby baseball » Thu Jan 14, 2010 12:06 am

Flip wrote:Heard and interesting stat tonight. Roy Williams has the best road winning percentage in the history of the ACC. Too bad opposing coaches don't know what Baseball knows.


Like i said...talent can carry you past coaching mistakes if you have enough of it. Roy is probably the best recruiter in the game, behind Calipari, now that he recruits the entire country (i say that because when he was at Kansas he pretty much never looked east of the Missouri..) Talent carried Calipari to the most wins in 00s. When i think coaching, i think X's and O's. now yes, recruiting is part of college coaching, but they are still different things. How many times does UNC, out of a time out, run a drawn up set play and get the EXACT look that was drawn up? First he has to call a timeout for that to happen, which isnt very often, but the execution of the "play" he draws up is even a lower percentage.

Roy Williams = great recruiter, average coach.
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby The Schwab » Sun Jan 17, 2010 10:47 pm

98 percent of coaching is done outside of the actual game
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Re: Final four picks...

Postby cubsfan » Mon Jan 18, 2010 10:02 pm

Is it just me or does UNC not run an offensive set? They have a lot of young talent but only one outside shooter and make terrible decisions ninety percent of the time.
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