Why can coaches leave but players can't?

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Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby classB4ever » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:44 am

I was really ticked off after seeing Steve Alford sign a 10 year contract extension and then leave New Mexico. In my mind, the same rules should apply to these coaches as does the players. They should have to sit out one or more years, unless the university signs off and is OK with their leaving. Seems to me that contracts are not worth the paper they are written on any more. What are your thoughts?
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Sportsrube » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:54 am

I agree, how many times have we seen a coach leave, his former program gets investigated, infractions are found, the program looses scholarships, bowl/touranment eligibility, etc... while the coach moves on to a new program and almost nothing happens. (Caliperi - Kentucky?) The NCAA is all about using athletes to make huge amounts of money and the coaches get to share in some of that money. The NCAA worries about things like nicknames and players making a little money but they don't want to face the major issues like coaches and the incredible influences of Nike, Reebok, etc... I enjoy watching college sports but the hypocrisy of the NCAA is unbelievable.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby classB4ever » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:42 am

I do know many people feel college players should be able to get paid. I personally do not agree with it. IMO, these players do get paid by getting scholarships. They have an opportunity to get a free education to go along with their athletic ability and college careers. Many of these players have an opportunity to gain "celebrity status" in their areas which makes finding a job much easier when done. What they choose to do with that the rest of their lives, is up to them.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Indy5 » Thu Apr 04, 2013 8:06 pm

I think they should get paid. I saw in an article that the average cost of living is 3,600 per year. They should at least get paid this. Many come from poor families. They can't have jobs because playing a sport consumes all your time. How are they supposed to live then?

Also, only football and men's basketball players should be paid. Those are the only two sports that actually make money. The rest literally lose money, and those 2 sports have to pay for them. The NCAAPA came up with a plan that could pay each athlete in those two sports 11,000 a year.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:03 am

I have a couple of thoughts on this. If a coach leaves early, there could be a cash penalty that usually the school getting the coach has to pay. But what about when a coach signs a contract, has some injuries in key positions and has a couple of bad years? Where is the loyalty to them then? It doesn't seem to be extended to those coaches and it happens all the time.
Athletes having to sit out a year prevents what would become "free agency" in college athletics and would also foster more cheating. "come to my school next year and you'll get $$$" And coaches can stop a player from going to certain schools as well. It's a no brainer that you wouldn't want a player to go to a rival team or a team in your conf. But some coaches go overboard with that. Randy Shannon a former coach at the "U" of Maimi excluded somewhere in the neighborhood of 27 schools for a QB (Robert Marve) who at the time wanted to leave to be closer to his dad who had cancer. Even school the Canes probably wouldn't play were excluded. Now IMHO that's a bit much.
As far as paying players, the scholarship does NOT cover the entire cost of college....and D1 NCAA athletes aren't allowed to have jobs. It sets up a situation for "extra benefits" from well meaning boosters and other alumni. I'll also say this....I served on active duty in the US Military for 10 yrs so I'm about as pro military as you can get. That said, the players at Army, Navy and Air Force ALL get money monthy at right around $900 for attending those academies...and all of THEM are NCAA athletes. So what is the money for if NCAA athletes can't have "jobs"? And it doesn't hurt any of those future Ensigns or 2nd Lt's.... I say give the student athletes a stipend. Stever Spurrier, Nick Saban, Mack Brown and a host of others are for it as well. There is a lot of temptation for a lot of these players..this would take "some" but not all of it away.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Flip » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:06 am

DL Satans wrote:I have a couple of thoughts on this. If a coach leaves early, there could be a cash penalty that usually the school getting the coach has to pay. But what about when a coach signs a contract, has some injuries in key positions and has a couple of bad years? Where is the loyalty to them then? It doesn't seem to be extended to those coaches and it happens all the time.

If you get fired you still get paid. It's hard to feel sorry for them.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Sun Apr 07, 2013 1:22 am

Oh, I don't feel sorry for them. But that wasnt' what I was addressing. I don't blame a coach for taking a job at a school for more money, better facilities, etc.... The guy who was at Utah St took the job at Wisconsin for probably double the money and a chance to play a higher grade of football. Some will be angry with him, some will understand and wish him well. He has a family to think about and a career that isn't famous for being all the forgiving sometimes.
What I was pointing out was that the loyalty that some expect a coach to have doesn't go both ways many times. But again, yeah, if they have time remaining on their contract and they get fired, they get paid, and they should, they were holding up their end, in those cases the school didn't. So why not?
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby bison football73 » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:31 pm

Indy5 wrote:I think they should get paid. I saw in an article that the average cost of living is 3,600 per year. They should at least get paid this. Many come from poor families. They can't have jobs because playing a sport consumes all your time. How are they supposed to live then?

Also, only football and men's basketball players should be paid. Those are the only two sports that actually make money. The rest literally lose money, and those 2 sports have to pay for them. The NCAAPA came up with a plan that could pay each athlete in those two sports 11,000 a year.


I feel like title 9 would come into play with only paying the two sports. I also researched and found that out of state football players at a top school with 100 percent scholarships get paid 80 dollars an hour for the sport they play. They also get free meals from the college an free room and board. Most colleges also have lounge rooms that provide xbox360's and PS3's. these players will get up to 200,000 dollars of schooling if they attend a four year school and have full rides. So in my opinion they do get paid.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Flip » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:36 pm

bison football73 wrote:
I feel like title 9 would come into play with only paying the two sports. I also researched and found that out of state football players at a top school with 100 percent scholarships get paid 80 dollars an hour for the sport they play. They also get free meals from the college an free room and board. Most colleges also have lounge rooms that provide xbox360's and PS3's. these players will get up to 200,000 dollars of schooling if they attend a four year school and have full rides. So in my opinion they do get paid.

link?
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Sun Apr 07, 2013 11:59 pm

yeah, I've never heard of the $80 thing. the full cost of college would also include laundry money, new clothes, shoes...and all the other day to day things. A lot of players come from some very poor families. How about money to go home in the spring or when bowl season is over.....? Haircuts?
Yeah, they get a lot with a full ride scholarship, no doubt, I wouldn't say differently. but they have to practice, to include film study, along with school etc.... More and more schools are turning a profit with some of their sports teams. I read somewhere that Alabama clears $40 million after costs to include Saban's +$ 5 Million dollar salary.
I don't think a school would get away with just paying football and basketball players. There is the title IX issues that another posters brought up, and the general equality issues the other players in other sports would have. If you play one, you would pretty much have to pay all.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby ndlionsfan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:29 am

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/a ... up/Sports/

Thought this article in the GF Herald today was interesting. At least some places still use common sense.
"There is only one thing in which a person can start at the top - digging a hole"
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:58 am

ndlionsfan wrote:http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/260775/group/Sports/

Thought this article in the GF Herald today was interesting. At least some places still use common sense.



I would tend to agree. Keeping the faith with your coaches also goes a long way toward attracting a new coach if you fire the old one. The incoming coach then knows he/she has the full support of the school. Loyalty is a door that swings both ways, and SU honored it's agreement with that coach.
So often, an injury plagued team isn't taken into account when an AD makes the decision to fire. This is why I don't blame a lot of coaches who decide to leave and go to a bigger and better program. They know you are only as valued as your last season. Tubby Smith was mentioned in the article, and he's a great example...he came off a very good season and got fired as was the coach at UCLA who actually won the PAC 12. It also makes sense in dollars and cents. Hey, if a coach loses and continues to lose but works for the length of the contract, both (the coach and school) can part with no hurt feelings with both knowing they kept up their end. It just didn't work out, that's life. I say well done by NDSU, this is how it should be but so very often isn't.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Flip » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:05 am

9th in a 12 team conference is "very good"
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby bison football73 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:06 pm

Flip wrote:
bison football73 wrote:
I feel like title 9 would come into play with only paying the two sports. I also researched and found that out of state football players at a top school with 100 percent scholarships get paid 80 dollars an hour for the sport they play. They also get free meals from the college an free room and board. Most colleges also have lounge rooms that provide xbox360's and PS3's. these players will get up to 200,000 dollars of schooling if they attend a four year school and have full rides. So in my opinion they do get paid.

link?


"Let me start the argument by making a proposal to parents and students alike. I am going to ask you to work no more than 20 hours a week for 21 weeks – with at least one mandatory day off every week. For another 23 weeks you'll work no more than eight hours a week. You'll get eight weeks off. (These are all NCAA-mandated time limits).


You will receive fall, spring and both summer sessions of education, plus room, board and all fees paid. For the 604 hours you put in, you'll get an education valued at $33,976 in state and $50,286 out of state (using last year's numbers from Penn State, the latest available). Keep in mind that number does not include several hundred dollars per semester for books and supplies, which are covered under the NCAA scholarship.

At those rates, the student-athlete on full scholarship to Penn State will earn $56.25 per hour if he is an in-state student and $83.25 per hour if he is an out-of-state student."

This is from an article Jay Paterno did a couple years ago. Here's the link if you want to read the full article. http://www.statecollege.com/news/column ... al-766175/
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Indy5 » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:54 pm

DL Satans wrote:I don't think a school would get away with just paying football and basketball players. There is the title IX issues that another posters brought up, and the general equality issues the other players in other sports would have. If you play one, you would pretty much have to pay all.

Why do you have to pay all? It is only fair to pay the 2 sports. How fair is it to pay softball players if their program loses $1 million a year when the football team is making $70 million a year. Gender should not matter, it's simply capitalism. If your're program makes money, you are allowed to be paid. If it loses money, you don't get paid.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:24 pm

Indy5 wrote:
DL Satans wrote:I don't think a school would get away with just paying football and basketball players. There is the title IX issues that another posters brought up, and the general equality issues the other players in other sports would have. If you play one, you would pretty much have to pay all.

Why do you have to pay all? It is only fair to pay the 2 sports. How fair is it to pay softball players if their program loses $1 million a year when the football team is making $70 million a year. Gender should not matter, it's simply capitalism. If your're program makes money, you are allowed to be paid. If it loses money, you don't get paid.



The LAW for one thing. College sports aren't considered a business in the way they are modeled. Most are run by the state and thus subject to public docrine, and again, "the law". In a lot of ways Title IX of the US Code doesn't make sense, but yet colleges HAVE to adhere to it...."or else"......
If they paid college athletes, but only in football and basketball....it wouldn't survive the first federal law suit by the National Organization for Women. Like it or not, THAT is the reality....
How things "should be" and how they "are" aren't always the same.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby DL Satans » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:37 pm

bison football73 wrote:
Flip wrote:
bison football73 wrote:
I feel like title 9 would come into play with only paying the two sports. I also researched and found that out of state football players at a top school with 100 percent scholarships get paid 80 dollars an hour for the sport they play. They also get free meals from the college an free room and board. Most colleges also have lounge rooms that provide xbox360's and PS3's. these players will get up to 200,000 dollars of schooling if they attend a four year school and have full rides. So in my opinion they do get paid.

link?


"Let me start the argument by making a proposal to parents and students alike. I am going to ask you to work no more than 20 hours a week for 21 weeks – with at least one mandatory day off every week. For another 23 weeks you'll work no more than eight hours a week. You'll get eight weeks off. (These are all NCAA-mandated time limits).


You will receive fall, spring and both summer sessions of education, plus room, board and all fees paid. For the 604 hours you put in, you'll get an education valued at $33,976 in state and $50,286 out of state (using last year's numbers from Penn State, the latest available). Keep in mind that number does not include several hundred dollars per semester for books and supplies, which are covered under the NCAA scholarship.

At those rates, the student-athlete on full scholarship to Penn State will earn $56.25 per hour if he is an in-state student and $83.25 per hour if he is an out-of-state student."

This is from an article Jay Paterno did a couple years ago. Here's the link if you want to read the full article. http://www.statecollege.com/news/column ... al-766175/



D1 college athletes work more than that, if not in "official" practice than on their own. And the player does not "pocket" that money. The school, in reality isn't out the amounts you gave. One more person or several in a class costs nothing...and the books that the athletes get the school pretty much gives away at cost. The biggest cost is food and lodging.. Now compare what a team like the Crimson Tide bring in... Ever price at ticket to even a non conf game at Bryant-Denny in Tuscaloosa? Look it up. Then look at what tickets go for in the Iron Bowl against Auburn. Then factor in the merchandising...it's HUGE. Hats, tshirts, hoodies you name it. The school gets a cut of all of that. And fans aren't buying it because they love the math dept.
And given what happened in "Happy Valley" I don't know if I would use Joe Paterno as my yard stick in regard to what's right or wrong......
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby bison football73 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 7:51 pm

DL Satans wrote:
bison football73 wrote:
Flip wrote:
bison football73 wrote:
I feel like title 9 would come into play with only paying the two sports. I also researched and found that out of state football players at a top school with 100 percent scholarships get paid 80 dollars an hour for the sport they play. They also get free meals from the college an free room and board. Most colleges also have lounge rooms that provide xbox360's and PS3's. these players will get up to 200,000 dollars of schooling if they attend a four year school and have full rides. So in my opinion they do get paid.

link?


"Let me start the argument by making a proposal to parents and students alike. I am going to ask you to work no more than 20 hours a week for 21 weeks – with at least one mandatory day off every week. For another 23 weeks you'll work no more than eight hours a week. You'll get eight weeks off. (These are all NCAA-mandated time limits).


You will receive fall, spring and both summer sessions of education, plus room, board and all fees paid. For the 604 hours you put in, you'll get an education valued at $33,976 in state and $50,286 out of state (using last year's numbers from Penn State, the latest available). Keep in mind that number does not include several hundred dollars per semester for books and supplies, which are covered under the NCAA scholarship.

At those rates, the student-athlete on full scholarship to Penn State will earn $56.25 per hour if he is an in-state student and $83.25 per hour if he is an out-of-state student."

This is from an article Jay Paterno did a couple years ago. Here's the link if you want to read the full article. http://www.statecollege.com/news/column ... al-766175/



D1 college athletes work more than that, if not in "official" practice than on their own. And the player does not "pocket" that money. The school, in reality isn't out the amounts you gave. One more person or several in a class costs nothing...and the books that the athletes get the school pretty much gives away at cost. The biggest cost is food and lodging.. Now compare what a team like the Crimson Tide bring in... Ever price at ticket to even a non conf game at Bryant-Denny in Tuscaloosa? Look it up. Then look at what tickets go for in the Iron Bowl against Auburn. Then factor in the merchandising...it's HUGE. Hats, tshirts, hoodies you name it. The school gets a cut of all of that. And fans aren't buying it because they love the math dept.
And given what happened in "Happy Valley" I don't know if I would use Joe Paterno as my yard stick in regard to what's right or wrong......


Jay Paterno and Joe wouldn't make sense in that argument anyways. Rooms and food are both paid for within your scholarship. Yes the college makes money off of the games but they still get $200,000 worth of a free education. All of this pay players crap is just greed.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Flip » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:01 pm

Lets say you work for XYZ Company and you are a very good employee. In fact you make your employer in the neighborhood of $10 million a year. You are paid a salary of $100,000. After years of employment you realize you are being exploited and ask for a raise. Your employer says, "you know bison football73 there are a lot of other people in this world that don't make $100,000 a year you should feel lucky to make that much."

Who would you consider is the greedy one?
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 10, 2013 12:11 pm

Attempting to pay college athletes will simply open up Pandora's Box. The regulations and guidelines to keep it on track would be mind boggling along with the chance of corruption skyrocketing. What do you use? Percentages? Caps? Do some players get paid more? Do football players get more then basketball? Who determines? Since some big school athletic programs make more then should they get to offer more? I think everyone can see what this would lead to.

Flip, I understand where you are going with your analogy but in reality does any one single employee know how much revenue they generate for the bottom line of a company? If they do, generally they are part of a profit sharing system in the first place. I believe I read somewhere that less then 1% of all college athletes will ever turn pro in their chosen sport. Wouldn't you agree that these kids should be relishing the fact they are receiving an education and should approach college with their eyes wide open knowing that the education they are receiving is more then likely what will be paying their bills for the rest of their lives.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Flip » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:30 pm

classB4ever, I can't disagree with anything you said. I don't have answers to all your questions. I don't know what the best solution is, but to say players are greedy for wanting some of the millions that the colleges, NCAA, Adidas and Nikes make off of the players is ridiculous.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby classB4ever » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:01 pm

Flip wrote:classB4ever, I can't disagree with anything you said. I don't have answers to all your questions. I don't know what the best solution is, but to say players are greedy for wanting some of the millions that the colleges, NCAA, Adidas and Nikes make off of the players is ridiculous.


And I certainly can't disagree with what you have said. To be honest, whenever there is so much money generated from certain things, it is only a matter of time (generally very short time) that the sharks move in. I will admit that I probably aided in the fact of getting this off topic. My original post was more so for my distaste in what Mr. Alford had done. I for one certainly believe in coaches being successful and moving up the ladder. Just don't like that he accepted a 10 year extension after negotiating, leaving New Mexico to think all was good only to bolt days later.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby Indy5 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:50 pm

classb, I see where your coming from with all the factors. I'm saying pay each player the same. Establish a "cost of living" meter and pay that. I just feel a lot of these kids that come from poor families still really struggle. The education is great and they might be the first ones to get to go to college, but that still doesn't help them live while they are there. They need SOME money and if their families can't help and they can't have jobs, I don't see where it'll come from.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby classB4ever » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:49 am

Indy5 wrote:classb, I see where your coming from with all the factors. I'm saying pay each player the same. Establish a "cost of living" meter and pay that. I just feel a lot of these kids that come from poor families still really struggle. The education is great and they might be the first ones to get to go to college, but that still doesn't help them live while they are there. They need SOME money and if their families can't help and they can't have jobs, I don't see where it'll come from.


To be very honest, there have been many smart people, talented musicians and singers, etc. that haven't been able to go to college because they can't afford it. If an athlete doesn't have enough money after their scholarship, then guess what, they shouldn't be in college. It's not a God given right to get a college education. If you cannot afford a new car, house, etc. you don't buy it. IMHO, the same should go for a college education.
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Re: Why can coaches leave but players can't?

Postby cubsfan » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:37 pm

DL Satans wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/260775/group/Sports/

Thought this article in the GF Herald today was interesting. At least some places still use common sense.



I would tend to agree. Keeping the faith with your coaches also goes a long way toward attracting a new coach if you fire the old one. The incoming coach then knows he/she has the full support of the school. Loyalty is a door that swings both ways, and SU honored it's agreement with that coach.
So often, an injury plagued team isn't taken into account when an AD makes the decision to fire. This is why I don't blame a lot of coaches who decide to leave and go to a bigger and better program. They know you are only as valued as your last season. Tubby Smith was mentioned in the article, and he's a great example...he came off a very good season and got fired as was the coach at UCLA who actually won the PAC 12. It also makes sense in dollars and cents. Hey, if a coach loses and continues to lose but works for the length of the contract, both (the coach and school) can part with no hurt feelings with both knowing they kept up their end. It just didn't work out, that's life. I say well done by NDSU, this is how it should be but so very often isn't.

I think that coaches get fired to early nowadays way to often. With that said, there is now way that Dehoff should have retained her job. Her teams have gotten worse every year that she has been year. She has not won a conference tournament game in the four years that she has been their. She has a combined record of 49-68 in her years at NDSU. NDSU women's basketball has a very successful history, but has now become irrelavent.
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