Questions for Viking's fans

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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Indy5 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:44 pm

defensewinsgames wrote:Couldn't disagree more. No division except maybe the NFC West has ever been open enough for a team to win in 2 offseasons. The only one who is delusional around here is you. Winner is completely right on this. The Vikings, Rams, Colts, and Jaguars are a long way from winning their divisions.

NFC South

From 2003 to 2009, the team that placed last in the division the previous year would improve enough to reach the playoffs, usually by winning the division. Tampa Bay almost continued this trend in 2010, stopped only by losing a tiebreaker to Green Bay.
Carolina finished last in 2002 (7–9) and finished first in 2003 (11–5).
Atlanta finished last in 2003 (5–11) and finished first in 2004 (11–5).
Tampa Bay finished last in 2004 (5–11) and finished first in 2005 (11–5).
New Orleans finished last in 2005 (3–13) and finished first in 2006 (10–6).
Tampa Bay finished last in 2006 (4–12) and finished first in 2007 (9–7).
Atlanta finished last in 2007 (4–12) and finished second with a playoff berth in 2008 (11–5).
New Orleans finished last in 2008 (8–8) and finished first in 2009 (13–3).
Tampa Bay finished last in 2009 (3-13) but despite finishing third in 2010 with a 10-6 record, did not make the playoffs, due to Green Bay holding the wild-card tiebreakers.
Carolina finished last in 2010 (2-14) and was eliminated from playoff contention in week 14 of the 2011 season after going 4-9, becoming the first NFC South team to have a losing season after placing last in the division.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Indy5 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 4:47 pm

I seem to be seeing a lot of evidence of teams turning around in one season, not even two.

NFL has turnaround maybe the quickest in pro sports. I'm hesitent here because in the NBA you can turn around awfully quick by signing a star or two. Look at the Knicks and Clippers.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:00 pm

Indy5 wrote:I seem to be seeing a lot of evidence of teams turning around in one season, not even two.

NFL has turnaround maybe the quickest in pro sports. I'm hesitent here because in the NBA you can turn around awfully quick by signing a star or two. Look at the Knicks and Clippers.



Turning around to what???? an above 500 Team...I mean you have Ryan saying the Jets would be back again this year....where are they????

I want the Vikes to win a Superbowl.....and if they do it in 2 years I'll Kiss everybody's A$$
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:28 pm

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:IMO the Vikings are going through a rebuilding phase right now...they 'could' compete for a division title/playoff spots within the next 2-3 years with the right personnal, draft picks, etc.

This is my entire point. Every team could compete for a divisional title in 2 years. My examples and NDlionsfan prove it can be done. It doesn't mean it will happen or it is easy to do. Most teams that stink this year will stink next year too.


I disagree. The Vikes will not be competing for a division title in 2-3 years with the Packers and Lions in it. Not unless they stock up on some very good d-backs, fix their O-line and develop a QB. H-ll, even Chicago with Cutler is ahead of them. Both the Pack and Lions are young, loaded with talent and seem to have the front office (Packers proven, Lions yet to be seen) to keep it going in that direction.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:29 pm

Completly agree with Winner. Winning a division with a 7 and 9 record in a year when other teams in the division are down and injury ridden isn't turning a franchise around. Turning a franchise around is going from being not even hopeful of a playoff birth to contending for a conference title every year (Patriots, Steelers, Ravens, Saints). The Rams from last year example is a joke! They went seven and nine didn't make the playoffs. The best QB in that division was a rookie and they were all poor teams. The last years Packers example is really bad as well. They had a ton of starters out and once they started to get healthier they started winning. Yes by some act of god everything goes exactly right it is possible to do it. The Vikings are a long way from superbowl contention, they have a decent at best rookie QB, a RB who will never be the same because of serious injury, a poor line, and a Defense who isn't playing up to it's potential. Anyone who believe you can go from a 2 or 3 or 4 win team to a perenial powerhouse in 2 years is dreaming.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Wed Dec 28, 2011 5:51 pm

You forgot a Delusional Coach...evidence of this every post game conference ....The y Need wide recievers worse then anything!!
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Flip » Wed Dec 28, 2011 6:10 pm

Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:IMO the Vikings are going through a rebuilding phase right now...they 'could' compete for a division title/playoff spots within the next 2-3 years with the right personnal, draft picks, etc.

This is my entire point. Every team could compete for a divisional title in 2 years. My examples and NDlionsfan prove it can be done. It doesn't mean it will happen or it is easy to do. Most teams that stink this year will stink next year too.


I disagree. The Vikes will not be competing for a division title in 2-3 years with the Packers and Lions in it. Not unless they stock up on some very good d-backs, fix their O-line and develop a QB. H-ll, even Chicago with Cutler is ahead of them. Both the Pack and Lions are young, loaded with talent and seem to have the front office (Packers proven, Lions yet to be seen) to keep it going in that direction.

Who has posted that Vikings WILL be competing for a division title? Not one person. Is it possible? Yes, it is and you even admit it in your post.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Run4Fun2009 » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:54 pm

classB4ever wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:
classB4ever wrote:
ndlionsfan wrote:

If teams draft right, sign a couple key players, have the right coach in place, and stay injury free things can turn around quickly in the NFL


I think the above is the key statement. Also, the most important question is what is the ultimate goal? Would guess the superbowl, correct? With that said, the teams with the quickest turn around and capable of sustaining successful seasons come from ones with a franchise quarterback. So, can Webb or Ponder be that QB? Or was Luck the one they let slip through their fingers?


You're exactly right. Its seems like in todays league you need to have the stud QB to be successful. But some other teams are doing it without that piece....Texans and 49ers come to mind. In my opinion, Ponder will lead the Vikes nowhere but I would like to see Webb get a shot with a full offseason and season as the starter. Use their picks and free agent signings on other pieces....OL, WR, defense, and RB now that AP is questionable. I also believe that RGIII will be a great QB in the league similar to Newton, but since he is a lot like Webb I say their other holes are much more important to get filled.


It's a tough call. Without the right coach, I don't think the Texans, 49ers or Lions would be succeeding even though they have had very high draft picks for a number of years. Smith looks like a pretty good qb after only 1 year with Harbaugh. Stafford as well in Detroit. The Texans are loaded with talent, so even Yates hasn't screwed it up too bad.
I think drafting high and stock piling talent is the key to where even the most inept coaching staff can't screw it up too bad. Whoops, forgot about Cleveland. Whenever we Viking fans are down, we can always say "at least we are not the Browns".


The key for the Texans this year was the addition of Wade Phillips as Defensive Coordinator...they were an awful defensive team and now they are near the top in most defensive categories.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:20 am

ndlionsfan wrote:


If teams draft right, sign a couple key players, have the right coach in place, and stay injury free things can turn around quickly in the NFL
"It doesn't matter who scores the points, it's who can get the ball to the scorer" - Larry Bird
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 29, 2011 12:29 am

ndlionsfan wrote:


If teams draft right, sign a couple key players, have the right coach in place, and stay injury free things can turn around quickly in the NFL



Your forgetting a few things here in your enormously broad statement, The NFL like any homogeneously money making/money losing business, is just that...a money making, money losing venture.....Your broad points, point right to the difficulties of making a turn around.... If, If, If,.... usually 3 ifs that a few teams get to experience....and the rest scramble and start training camp not knowing exactly whats in store.....but you can bet whats in store is not a division title let alone a winning season.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Flip » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:13 am

winner, who are you arguing with? there hasn't been a single poster that has claimed it is easy to do.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:45 am

No but there has been multiple posters who think that turning a franchise around is something everyone in the NFL can do in 1 to 2 years. Do you know how unlikely it is that any sub 500 team is ever going to have a great free agency period, a good draft, stay injury free, and have a real good coaching staff? It's like a one in a million thing. If it was as simple as turning around the entire franchise in a year every team would do it. Your not accounting for the teams attitude, mind set, and work ethic. It takes a strong head coach and some time to change the culture of a losing team.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:54 am

Flip wrote:
Bison-Vikes #1 wrote:
Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:IMO the Vikings are going through a rebuilding phase right now...they 'could' compete for a division title/playoff spots within the next 2-3 years with the right personnal, draft picks, etc.

This is my entire point. Every team could compete for a divisional title in 2 years. My examples and NDlionsfan prove it can be done. It doesn't mean it will happen or it is easy to do. Most teams that stink this year will stink next year too.


I disagree. The Vikes will not be competing for a division title in 2-3 years with the Packers and Lions in it. Not unless they stock up on some very good d-backs, fix their O-line and develop a QB. H-ll, even Chicago with Cutler is ahead of them. Both the Pack and Lions are young, loaded with talent and seem to have the front office (Packers proven, Lions yet to be seen) to keep it going in that direction.

Who has posted that Vikings WILL be competing for a division title? Not one person. Is it possible? Yes, it is and you even admit it in your post.


Really?

Flip wrote:
winner-within wrote:The Vikes are about 5-7 years away from even winning the NFC North...

You're delusional. Every team in the NFL is 2 good off seasons away from winning their division.

This is the same team you thought would go 11-5.


and

Flip wrote:
Run4Fun2009 wrote:IMO the Vikings are going through a rebuilding phase right now...they 'could' compete for a division title/playoff spots within the next 2-3 years with the right personnal, draft picks, etc.

This is my entire point. Every team could compete for a divisional title in 2 years. My examples and NDlionsfan prove it can be done. It doesn't mean it will happen or it is easy to do. Most teams that stink this year will stink next year too.


My point is they needed to lose to Washington on Sunday to get the highest draft pick possible. There is no way they can fill all the holes they have in 2 years to compete with Green Bay for a divisional title. Have other teams done it? Yes. But as pointed out by defense and winner, it was either in very poor divisions or under unique circumstances. Yes?
Last edited by Bison-Vikes #1 on Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:00 pm

Flip wrote:winner, who are you arguing with? there hasn't been a single poster that has claimed it is easy to do.



I'm not arguing....Ndlionsfan points are like a Golfer saying, If I hit the fairway 8 out of 9 times and if I set it near the pin, and if I putt real well, I will par the course. .....and yes, the initial argument brought up by you in contrast to my point of 5-7 years (not 7, like you tried to spin it) was that it was easy to do and quite common at that.....The easy part is Saying it....you know like "Easier said then Done"
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:33 pm

Again, no one is saying that the Vikes are guaranteed to win there division in two years. We are just pointing out that it is possible because there are many examples of it being done in the last 5 years alone. Or the Vikes could continue to stink and be like the Lions were this past decade. Who knows. BUT, the Detroit Lions were 0-16 three seasons ago, 2-14 the following year, and were sitting at 2-10 last season before winning their last four. They are now 14-5 in their last 19 games, which is right behind the Packers. They have turned it around very quick after being a joke for 10+ years. Could very well be the NFC north champs next season or a few injuries away from going back to the cellar.

The Vikes are two years removed from the NFC championship game and last year were expected to contend for it again. Before that, they were regularly in or challenging for the playoffs. Their franchise is not in that bad of shape. Patch a few holes and get a few more pieces in place and they will be right back up there in a year or two.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 29, 2011 1:49 pm

Actually there has been nothing "very quick" about it...three long seasons and they're still far from dangerous, and their record is more representative of their schedule than anything.
And as long as Rogers is playing and with Cutler coming Back, they don't have a prayer of winning anything....My initial point and you guys know this is....A true Contender (like the Vikes in 1998).
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Bison-Vikes #1 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:16 pm

ndlionsfan wrote:The Vikes are two years removed from the NFC championship game and last year were expected to contend for it again. Before that, they were regularly in or challenging for the playoffs. Their franchise is not in that bad of shape. Patch a few holes and get a few more pieces in place and they will be right back up there in a year or two.


Of course anything is possible. Rodgers, Stafford and Cutler could all go down in the same year. But being in the NFC North right now with 2 young, talented teams in front of them, it's just not probable. How many top 5 draft picks has Detroit had in the past decade? Young, good talent. Green Bay drafts and builds as good as anybody, year in and year out. Minnesota's lack of a good GM will always be their downfall. Not to mention their coaching staff certainly isn't proven. They are also old at many positions.
I know 1 top draft pick wouldn't necessarily make all the difference, but if Luck is the next great one, it's just typical the Vikes would miss out on him. I personally don't think patching a few holes is going to work this time around. I guess we will just have to revisit this in 2 years and see. :?:
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Thu Dec 29, 2011 2:32 pm

There is 3 really good QBs in the NFC North. It is a QBs league and he Vikings have the worst on in their division and almost the least talent at the Wideout position (Chicago is close but they have real good QB and Forte to check down to) the only receiver they have is Harvin. The Vikings are not known to draft well (The Packers, Lions, and Patriots are probably the best 3, that's why they turnEd it around). There is a one in a million chance that all other 3 teams are injury ridden enough for the Vikings to contend for the division title. The Lions got a top 3 draft pick 3 years in a row (I believe) the Vikings don't have that. So by using a few exceptions to the rule is not realistic. That's like a high school coach saying, "If the other teams in our region lose a couple starters, we get a few transfers in, we don't have any injuries, and I make all the right decsions we can win the region."
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Indy5 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:01 pm

defensewinsgames wrote:There is 3 really good QBs in the NFC North. It is a QBs league and he Vikings have the worst on in their division and almost the least talent at the Wideout position (Chicago is close but they have real good QB and Forte to check down to) the only receiver they have is Harvin. The Vikings are not known to draft well (The Packers, Lions, and Patriots are probably the best 3, that's why they turnEd it around). There is a one in a million chance that all other 3 teams are injury ridden enough for the Vikings to contend for the division title. The Lions got a top 3 draft pick 3 years in a row (I believe) the Vikings don't have that. So by using a few exceptions to the rule is not realistic. That's like a high school coach saying, "If the other teams in our region lose a couple starters, we get a few transfers in, we don't have any injuries, and I make all the right decsions we can win the region."

Your pessimism is a little outstanding. Yes the Vikings are in a tough spot because they are in the division set up to be the toughest in the coming years. The Packers and Lions are young and the Bears have a franchise QB, but they don't have any receivers, and their D is getting old. The Packers and Lions look like they should be great for many years, but how often do teams look like that, then end up becoming average? Things happen in the NFL. Tables turn quickly. I think it's very unwise to say that theres no way in 3 years the Vikings could compete for the division. Does it look like it right now? No, but 3 years is a long time.

By the way, I'm not a Vikings fan, just someone who has seen many teams turn it around quickly.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:29 pm

The Vikings have the same problems as the Bears. The only difference is they don't have a franchise QB and now they have a runningback who was 60 to 70 percent of their offense that will never be the same. I'm not a Vikings fan either and I don't hate them either I would love to see them succeed but I think that saying any team can be a division contender in 1 to 2 years is ridiculous
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby Indy5 » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:34 pm

defensewinsgames wrote:but I think that saying any team can be a division contender in 1 to 2 years is ridiculous

I just have to really disagree with that. Maybe they can't in their division, but in almost any other division they could. Not saying they would but they could.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby winner-within » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:48 pm

Indy5 wrote:
defensewinsgames wrote:There is 3 really good QBs in the NFC North. It is a QBs league and he Vikings have the worst on in their division and almost the least talent at the Wideout position (Chicago is close but they have real good QB and Forte to check down to) the only receiver they have is Harvin. The Vikings are not known to draft well (The Packers, Lions, and Patriots are probably the best 3, that's why they turnEd it around). There is a one in a million chance that all other 3 teams are injury ridden enough for the Vikings to contend for the division title. The Lions got a top 3 draft pick 3 years in a row (I believe) the Vikings don't have that. So by using a few exceptions to the rule is not realistic. That's like a high school coach saying, "If the other teams in our region lose a couple starters, we get a few transfers in, we don't have any injuries, and I make all the right decsions we can win the region."

Your pessimism is a little outstanding. Yes the Vikings are in a tough spot because they are in the division set up to be the toughest in the coming years. The Packers and Lions are young and the Bears have a franchise QB, but they don't have any receivers, and their D is getting old. The Packers and Lions look like they should be great for many years, but how often do teams look like that, then end up becoming average? Things happen in the NFL. Tables turn quickly. I think it's very unwise to say that theres no way in 3 years the Vikings could compete for the division. Does it look like it right now? No, but 3 years is a long time.

By the way, I'm not a Vikings fan, just someone who has seen many teams turn it around quickly.



I'm a Fierce Vikes fan....and I'm stickin with my 5-7 years.....and they get a Superbowl Ring .......they have a fairly good reputation in the league I hope Ziggy realizes that.

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Throughout the Vikings' history, they have had one of the highest winning percentages in the NFL.[3] They are also one of only five NFL teams to win 15 games during the regular season. The Vikings have won one NFL championship, in 1969, prior to the league's merger with the American Football League (AFL). Since the merger, they have made the playoffs 24 times, third most in the league. The team has played in four Super Bowls, losing in each one. The team currently has ten members in the Pro Football Hall of Fame: Fran Tarkenton, Alan Page, Bud Grant, Jim Finks, Paul Krause, Ron Yary, Carl Eller, Gary Zimmerman, Randall McDaniel and John Randle.[4
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Thu Dec 29, 2011 6:07 pm

Ok Indy if that's your stance do you think all these teams can win their divisions in the next 2 years?
The Dolphins
The Browns
The Jaguars
The Chiefs
The Buccaneers
The Rams
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby ndlionsfan » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:57 pm

Bucs, Rams, and Chiefs yes. Dolphins its tought with NE in there, but they did it just a few years ago so its possible. Plus they have been playing really good fball the last half of the year. If they didn't have so many close losses in that 0-7 start they would be playoff bound. Browns are in a terribly tough division, but with the draft picks they've piled up now they could be right there in 2-3 years.

In regards to the comment of the Lions being a good team at drafting players. Wow do you have a short memory! They had the most 1st round busts out of any team until they got rid of Millen a couple years ago. Then they had a few good drafts and offseason acquisitions and now they are where they are.
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Re: Questions for Viking's fans

Postby defensewinsgames » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:33 pm

Yes sorry I was talking recent drafts, that is my bad I should have specified. The Bucs have just as tough of division with the falcons and saints and a young panthers team so I don't think they can compete. Possibly for a wild card but I don't see anyone except Atlanta competing with the Saints. The Rams yes because they are in a terribly weak division although San Fran seams to be establishing themselves and Seatlevis shoeing a little life. The Dolphins I honestly think are the closest to competing. They have a lot of talent at the skill positions and a decent defense, they just need a legit. QB. The Chiefs again are in a really weak division so they just have to be there to compete, but the jaguars aren't even close to the Texans and the titans are showing something as well so I don't see them competing.
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