West vrs. East

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Postby NDhockey6b » Wed Feb 22, 2006 5:47 pm

Will the east take all 4? Will minot be the only west team to advance? Maybe even a 2-2 split? Will there be a west team in the ship? Will South choke again, will a grand forks team find somehow to win again? So many questions...its gonna be an AWESOME tourny!
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Postby Slapshot03 » Wed Feb 22, 2006 6:31 pm

No,Yes,No,No,No,No,
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Postby MinotBison » Thu Feb 23, 2006 4:54 pm

Slapshot03 wrote:No,Yes,No,No,No,No,


This is getting ridiculous.

What to do about the West's inability to win AT ALL in the first round?  Since they went to this 4 from the West and 4 from the East format, the West's record in the first round is something like 4 wins and all the rest losses.  That's crazy.

The scores are reasonably close, so it's not that they can't compete.  It's just that year in and year out, for some reason, when it comes to the state tournament, they don't compete, and I hate saying that.

I have some thoughts on the subject, but do any of you fans of Western  hockey teams have any ideas?
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Postby money2128 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:22 am

MinotBison wrote:
Slapshot03 wrote:No,Yes,No,No,No,No,


This is getting ridiculous.

What to do about the West's inability to win AT ALL in the first round?  Since they went to this 4 from the West and 4 from the East format, the West's record in the first round is something like 4 wins and all the rest losses.  That's crazy.

The scores are reasonably close, so it's not that they can't compete.  It's just that year in and year out, for some reason, when it comes to the state tournament, they don't compete, and I hate saying that.

I have some thoughts on the subject, but do any of you fans of Western  hockey teams have any ideas?

I think possibly scheduling more regular season games between west and east teams might be one idea.
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Postby MinotBison » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:35 am

That was going to be one of my suggestions.  I would propose allowing each team to schedule 3-4 more games, so long as those games were played against teams from the other half of the state.

If the Western teams want to get better, they are going to have to start playing the better teams  more often.  If they aren't able to do that, this sorry situation will continue ad infinitum.

[user=270]money2128[/user] wrote:
MinotBison wrote:
Slapshot03 wrote:No,Yes,No,No,No,No,


This is getting ridiculous.

What to do about the West's inability to win AT ALL in the first round?  Since they went to this 4 from the West and 4 from the East format, the West's record in the first round is something like 4 wins and all the rest losses.  That's crazy.

The scores are reasonably close, so it's not that they can't compete.  It's just that year in and year out, for some reason, when it comes to the state tournament, they don't compete, and I hate saying that.

I have some thoughts on the subject, but do any of you fans of Western  hockey teams have any ideas?

I think possibly scheduling more regular season games between west and east teams might be one idea.
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Postby 1337 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:39 am

I agree that in order to beat the best, you have to play the best. However, I do feel it is going to be tough to schedule additional games, and yet I don't see them wanting to drop other games in favor of east/west games. There has to be a way to work it all out.
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Postby MinotBison » Fri Feb 24, 2006 5:58 am

1337 wrote:I agree that in order to beat the best, you have to play the best. However, I do feel it is going to be tough to schedule additional games, and yet I don't see them wanting to drop other games in favor of east/west games. There has to be a way to work it all out.


Even though I know it would go over like poop in a punchbowl, I was also going to suggest dividing hockey into a form of Class A and Class B, much like most of the other sports do.  Here's what I would do:

1.  Take the teams that are in the state tournament this year, and call them, let's say, Division I.  All the other teams would be Division II.

2.  Next season, the teams would play teams in their own division twice, for a total of 14 games.  That would still leave room for 5-6 (or however many) other games.

3.  Conduct two separate state tournaments next year, one for each division.  At the end of those tournaments, the two teams that were the first to be eliminated in Div. I would drop to Div. II, and the two teams that finished at the top of Div. II would be promoted to Div. I, much like soccer leagues do the world over.

I know pigs will fly before anything like that might happen, but it's just my two cents worth.  If it can generate some good discussion, then all the better.

It again gets back to the idea that if a team wants to get better, it will have to play better teams.

 
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Postby 1337 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:06 am

Yeah pigs will fly on that one but I do think the idea is interesting and thought provoking. Definitely a good thing when having this discussion. Thanks for sharing the idea, anybody else have any ideas similiar or different?
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Postby money2128 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:42 am

MinotBison wrote:
1337 wrote:I agree that in order to beat the best, you have to play the best. However, I do feel it is going to be tough to schedule additional games, and yet I don't see them wanting to drop other games in favor of east/west games. There has to be a way to work it all out.


Even though I know it would go over like poop in a punchbowl, I was also going to suggest dividing hockey into a form of Class A and Class B, much like most of the other sports do.  Here's what I would do:

1.  Take the teams that are in the state tournament this year, and call them, let's say, Division I.  All the other teams would be Division II.

2.  Next season, the teams would play teams in their own division twice, for a total of 14 games.  That would still leave room for 5-6 (or however many) other games.

3.  Conduct two separate state tournaments next year, one for each division.  At the end of those tournaments, the two teams that were the first to be eliminated in Div. I would drop to Div. II, and the two teams that finished at the top of Div. II would be promoted to Div. I, much like soccer leagues do the world over.

I know pigs will fly before anything like that might happen, but it's just my two cents worth.  If it can generate some good discussion, then all the better.

It again gets back to the idea that if a team wants to get better, it will have to play better teams.

 



I think the only way to work it out would be to schedule more games.  I think if our state tournament was in the first or second week of March (similar to Minnesota) you could push the regular season schedule from 21 to 24(maybe 25) games.  Like 1337 said, I think it would be tough to schedule additional games, due to conflict with other sports. 

I like the fact that some schools travel out of state to Minnesota for Holliday Tourneys and just plain exhibition games, so I wouldn't prefer eliminating that option.  I think the west would benefit from playing more Minnesota teams over the holidays. 

Other ideas i have would be switching the East and West, to North and South.  You play every team in your region twice for points, and teams from the other region at least once for points (this could maybe work in the east and west format).  The only Problem with this idea is some teams would have to travel clear across the state to play a regular season game.  Another issue would be filling up your schedule playing ND teams and not venturing outside the state.

The bottom line is the best 8 teams in the state aren't playing in the state tourney year in and year out.

Any other ideas feel free to comment. 

Maybe us High School Hockey Rubes can come up with a solution to this problem.

 
Last edited by money2128 on Fri Feb 24, 2006 6:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby puck71 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:17 am

I've thought of the North/South split also, since this is how youth hockey is split. This is how the regions would go if they followed the Bantam regions:

North:
GRAFTON 
GF CENTRAL
GF RED RIVER 
MINOT
HAZEN/BEULAH
WILLISTON
DEVILS LAKE

South:
BISMARCK HIGH
BISMARCK CENTURY
MANDAN
WEST FARGO
FARGO NORTH
FARGO SOUTH
DICKINSON
JAMESTOWN
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Postby Csauce123 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:23 am

LOL that wouldnt work south would never lose!!! The north would be interesting though
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Postby MinotBison » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:35 am

Regardless of how the teams are divided, the concensus seems to be that we need more games.

Now, how do we sell that concept to the NDHSAA?
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Postby money2128 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:38 am

Csauce123 wrote:LOL that wouldnt work south would never lose!!! The north would be interesting though

yeah maybe this year and next year, but i don't think it would be like that every year
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Postby money2128 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 7:54 am

puck71 wrote:I've thought of the North/South split also, since this is how youth hockey is split. This is how the regions would go if they followed the Bantam regions:

North:
GRAFTON 
GF CENTRAL
GF RED RIVER 
MINOT
HAZEN/BEULAH
WILLISTON
DEVILS LAKE

South:
BISMARCK HIGH
BISMARCK CENTURY
MANDAN
WEST FARGO
FARGO NORTH
FARGO NORTH
DICKINSON
JAMESTOWN

Here is how I would do it: 18 Teams

North                        South

1Grafton                   1BISMARCK HIGH

2Central                   2BISMARCK CENTURY

3Red River                3Mandan

4Minot                      4FARGO NORTH

5Hazen                    5FARGO South

6Williston                6Shanley

7Devils Lake            7Jamestown

8Bottineau              8Dickinson

9WestFargo            9Whapeton
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Postby puck71 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 9:08 am

Sorry, I forgot some teams that are in high school because they don't have Bantam A programs. I think it would be a mistake to separate Fargo and West Fargo, so I'd take your list and swap West Fargo and Dickinson. Dickinson isn't any farther north than West Fargo (they're both right on I-94) but I think they'd fit in better in that division than West Fargo would.
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Postby ndsubball » Fri Feb 24, 2006 10:01 am

Devils Lake loses to Minot 2-1 in overtime at the Ralph...they but a good effort in tho
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Postby ndfan » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:47 am

Whats wrong with the EDC and WDA that it needs to be changed? And there isnt enough teams to make up two divisions or classes. I dont like that idea at all. If small town Grafton can compete with the souths, RR, and centrals every year then the Minot, Dickinsons, bismarcks and Willistons should beable too.
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Postby ndsubball » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:48 am

DL is moving to the EDC next year
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Postby ndfan » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:50 am

Yes them and Jamestown are swtiching.
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Postby 1337 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:52 am

ndfan wrote:Whats wrong with the EDC and WDA that it needs to be changed? And there isnt enough teams to make up two divisions or classes. I dont like that idea at all. If small town Grafton can compete with the souths, RR, and centrals every year then the Minot, Dickinsons, bismarcks and Willistons should beable too.


I think you just made their point. The reason small town Grafton can compete is because it's always had to play the best competition. The western teams struggle because of the level of competition they play never forces their program to get better or able to win the big games. Initially the teams that do well now would probably dominate, but at some point there would become a better parity between the east and the west. I'm not necessairly advocating this, but that seems to be the sentiment of most people posting in this thread. I'm not sure which way is the right way, but something does need to be done. We can't continue to have year after year the western teams getting swept in the first round. I quite honestly don't know what the answer is and think this is indeed a good conversation to have. North/South has long been discussed if my memory serves me right.
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Postby MinotBison » Fri Feb 24, 2006 12:01 pm

Since I am from Minot, it would be interesting to hear from former Minot High hockey players and get their take on all of this.
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Postby money2128 » Fri Feb 24, 2006 1:41 pm

puck71 wrote:Sorry, I forgot some teams that are in high school because they don't have Bantam A programs. I think it would be a mistake to separate Fargo and West Fargo, so I'd take your list and swap West Fargo and Dickinson. Dickinson isn't any farther north than West Fargo (they're both right on I-94) but I think they'd fit in better in that division than West Fargo would.

I could agree with that
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Postby ndfan » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:54 am

I think it should be left just the way it is. The problem here is scheduling, Williston didn't play a East team all year, Dickinson only played Wahpeton the worst team in the EDC. Hazen played Wahpeton and Shanley (losing to Shanley). The West needs to start scheduling more games with the East. Another thing the East has an advantage in is the state right next to them, MINNESOTA. With the likes of Warroad, Roseau, Moorhead, etc... Who does the West have? Montana and South Dakota neither has hockey that compares to ND and Minnesota if they even have hockey.

If you switch to a north south division there is a better chance that teams from the West right now would probably not even make state. If they were to make state they would be low seed and be playing for consaltion anyway.

Another thing they could do is get more East vs. West tourneys. Make it round robin so the West plays all East teams.

Just my opinion, take it for what its worth (probably nothing)
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Postby MinotBison » Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:59 am

ndfan wrote:I think it should be left just the way it is. The problem here is scheduling, Williston didn't play a East team all year, Dickinson only played Wahpeton the worst team in the EDC. Hazen played Wahpeton and Shanley (losing to Shanley). The West needs to start scheduling more games with the East. Another thing the East has an advantage in is the state right next to them, MINNESOTA. With the likes of Warroad, Roseau, Moorhead, etc... Who does the West have? Montana and South Dakota neither has hockey that compares to ND and Minnesota if they even have hockey.

If you switch to a north south division there is a better chance that teams from the West right now would probably not even make state. If they were to make state they would be low seed and be playing for consaltion anyway.

Another thing they could do is get more East vs. West tourneys. Make it round robin so the West plays all East teams.

Just my opinion, take it for what its worth (probably nothing)
I largely agree with what you have said.  The West does indeed need to schedule more games against the East.  The problem, however, is that there is no incentive for the East teams to play the West, precisely because of having Minnesota (almost literally) right next door.  That's why I had said earlier that the schedule needs to be expanded by 2-4 games, with the provision that those games be played against teams from the other half of the state.
I know that ever since this 4 West and 4 East format was adopted, the Eastern teams have complained that it wasn't fair to them.  And you know what?  They are absolutely right.  I would therefore propose that in return for the Eastern teams playing the West more often during the regular season (via the method mentioned earlier), we go back to the way they used to qualify for state.  That is, a one game format where 1E vs. 8W, 2E vs. 7W, etc.  Just my thoughts for the day.
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Postby money2128 » Sun Feb 26, 2006 10:10 am

MinotBison wrote:
ndfan wrote:I think it should be left just the way it is. The problem here is scheduling, Williston didn't play a East team all year, Dickinson only played Wahpeton the worst team in the EDC. Hazen played Wahpeton and Shanley (losing to Shanley). The West needs to start scheduling more games with the East. Another thing the East has an advantage in is the state right next to them, MINNESOTA. With the likes of Warroad, Roseau, Moorhead, etc... Who does the West have? Montana and South Dakota neither has hockey that compares to ND and Minnesota if they even have hockey.

If you switch to a north south division there is a better chance that teams from the West right now would probably not even make state. If they were to make state they would be low seed and be playing for consaltion anyway.

Another thing they could do is get more East vs. West tourneys. Make it round robin so the West plays all East teams.

Just my opinion, take it for what its worth (probably nothing)
I largely agree with what you have said.  The West does indeed need to schedule more games against the East.  The problem, however, is that there is no incentive for the East teams to play the West, precisely because of having Minnesota (almost literally) right next door.  That's why I had said earlier that the schedule needs to be expanded by 2-4 games, with the provision that those games be played against teams from the other half of the state.
I know that ever since this 4 West and 4 East format was adopted, the Eastern teams have complained that it wasn't fair to them.  And you know what?  They are absolutely right.  I would therefore propose that in return for the Eastern teams playing the West more often during the regular season (via the method mentioned earlier), we go back to the way they used to qualify for state.  That is, a one game format where 1E vs. 8W, 2E vs. 7W, etc.  Just my thoughts for the day.


 

I agree, teams like williston and dickinson etc. need to schedule more games vs. east teams.  I also agree on the same note that their isn't enough incentive for teams like red river, central, south, and north and so on..... to schedule games with teams like dickinson and williston(9 times out of 10 will get blown out) especially when they have minnesota next door. I am in strong favor of pushing the regular season game limit from 21 to 25, pushing regionals and state back a week or two, and getting more west vs east/minnesota matchups.

If their was north/south divisions and teams from the west didn't make it to state or did make it as lower seeds; at least we would know that we had the best 8 teams in the tournament and the quarterfinals wouldn't be as one sided.  I think that you could argue that a couple of teams from the east (North, West Fargo), could be better than some of the west teams that made it to state This Year, regardless of where they finished in the regular season standings.  This seems to happen often where a couple of bubble teams from the east get knocked out of state over lower seeded teams from the west who typically aren't as good and wouldn't finish even close in the top half of the EDC. 

I am not saying that a north south division change would be the best thing or that i am strongly in favor it, but i think its something to consider. Obviously these divisions are lopsided and I would just like to see the best 8 teams at the state tournament year in and year out without getting rid of the regional tournys.
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